VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

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VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:16 pm

This week on a loaded episode of the Voices of Wrestling Flagship podcast, Joe and Rich review AAA TripleMania, discuss the final few nights of NJPW's G1 Climax 29 including scenarios that can play out in both blocks and finish the show with a preview of the WWE SummerSlam weekend including Sunday's main show and NXT TakeOver: Toronto II.



MP3: https://audioboom.com/posts/7336576-vow ... eekend.mp3

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by Ferrante207 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:55 pm

I know you guys love your g1 math, but in the grand scheme of things we never revisit this stuff and really only remember: the block finals, the finals, and whatever elite bangers stick in MOTY convo. All the g1 math, and the "very good" 4 flat stuff gets forgotten. For how amazing the g1 is, about 80% of it becomes disposable once it's over. I'm not sure if this just shows how fast wrestling moves and the pressure to keep up, or what.

This is off topic, but a cool section for the next NJPW book, or maybe even a nice evergreen feature would be a an explainer on who trained all the NJPW guys, what that influence may be, moves they use form their mentors etc. Chris Carlton will pepper in this stuff on comm a bit, but it'd be cool to see it in detail all in one place.

Joe's poop escapade reminded me of a classic Glengarry Glen Ross quote: "You ever take a dump made you feel like you'd just slept for twelve hours?"

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by armsofsleep » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:08 pm

I think a lot of people who aren't enjoying KENTA's current output (I'd count myself in that realm even though I enjoyed the Ibushi match) were probably not the biggest fans of him in the old days either. Like, I loved his aura, loved the way he carried himself, etc. But even in NOAH I would never consider him a top tier, all world level worker. So now that he's completely lost his edge and aura and what makes him special, he's just sort of an average wrestler. Not every wrestler can be Sugiura, the greatest wrestler in NOAH history from start to finish. Time comes for us all.

I don't think the sloppiness was the worst part of the Ospreay/KENTA match (in my notes I have four straight up botches marked) but I think for the most part it just didn't play to the strengths of either guy. Ospreay can't go full nutty flips because KENTA can't keep up. Who wants an Ospreay strike exchange? And KENTA can't really just beat the shit out of Ospreay and be a dick because Ospreay is contractually obligated to hit all of his spots in every single match (and also go over 20 minutes in a match that totally doesn't require it).

I don't think it's worth shitting on a match because of a little awkwardness here and there, I think KENTA/Ospreay is probably more of a "broken from the ground up" type of match where it was just the wrong structure in every way. That's why I hate it. The botches just make for a good gif to help out my position.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by Murcatto » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:38 pm

Could part of the reason Fale is still booked in G1 simply be that they want Bullet Club to have more than one rep in the tournament? Fale has more booking credibility as a singles wrestler than Chase, Yujiro or G.O.D. If another pushed heavyweight were to join Bullet Club then I suspect Fale's G1 days would be over. Maybe Hikuleo could displace him if his excursion goes well

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by Ckkj14 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:57 pm

Please never do G1 math again! haha you were both close to Big Dave territory

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by andrewrich » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:01 am

Ferrante207 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:55 pm
Joe's poop escapade reminded me of a classic Glengarry Glen Ross quote: "You ever take a dump made you feel like you'd just slept for twelve hours?"
Or the Ron White joke, "You ever take a crap so big, your pants fit better? I'm hoping for one of those soon, these are feeling a little snug."

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by suplexberry » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:27 am

I don't do star ratings, largely because I don't have to. I will reference them conceptually ("Shibata vs Okada is a five star match" or "that match was close but not quite five stars for me"). It is very context-dependent. I think a promotion like PROGRESS was a place for matches that weren't always great (gentleman's three would be a fair assessment) but they were so elevated by the fans' personal investment that if forced to rate them, I'd knock them up to great (or four stars in star terms).

On top of that, sometimes a match just hits you right where you wanted it. I remember raving and I mean raving about the Dontaku match between Ospreay and KUSHIDA and folks going like, "Yeah it was good but it wasn't like .. that amazing?" and me telling them to rewatch it. It seriously ended up being on my MOTY list. But I don't know what it was - just personal investment? Both are huge faves of mine, this was I believe their final match together in this promotion. It continued the great story from Ospreay vs Scurll from that year as well. To me it just hit all the right spots.

I only started watching the G1 this week so I have too much catching up to do. I'm picking cherries on top, sometimes watching the full upper card of a show, sometimes just selecting a few matches to watch. I watched KENTA vs Ospreay and I really enjoyed it, but I think it's mostly because I've barely seen KENTA in this tournament. G1 math being so crazy I'm excited for the final of the B block.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by mlev76 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:30 pm

One of you needs to make a course proposal for your local university for G1 math and try to get a summer course set up. I'm sure UT or UC would jump at the chance to have such an important issue taught.

On another note, I can't believe anyone would not want 1) the third stip in the 2/3 match to be a loser leaves NXT match and 2) Gargano to lose. To give you a sense of how long he's been in NXT, when he in Ciampa first teamed in the first Dusty Classic, the whole tournament was used as a means to set up the Finn Balor/Samoa Joe feud. There have been 10 NXT title changes, the creation and three title changes of the NA title, 5 women's title changes and 11 tag title changes. There's nothing left for him to do beyond having a sex change and going for the women's belt. It's time to let him sink or swim on one of the two big brands or throw him on 205live and give him a year to amp up that division.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by Ferrante207 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:36 pm

I bet Mookie can do the g1 math in his head perfectly.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by PrivateRadio87 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:40 pm

armsofsleep wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:08 pm
And KENTA can't really just beat the shit out of Ospreay and be a dick because Ospreay is contractually obligated to hit all of his spots in every single match (and also go over 20 minutes in a match that totally doesn't require it).
I can't tell you how happy it makes me to hear someone else say this shit. I love Ospreay just like everyone else does but you can figure out how much is left in every match by ticking boxes. "This isn't the finish, he hasn't done the Robinson Special or the backflip into a Ligerbomb yet." When everyone was impressed at the match he got out of Douki I felt like I'd gone insane. Why the fuck is it taking the best junior in the company 23 minutes to beat Douki?
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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:36 pm

PrivateRadio87 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:40 pm
armsofsleep wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:08 pm
And KENTA can't really just beat the shit out of Ospreay and be a dick because Ospreay is contractually obligated to hit all of his spots in every single match (and also go over 20 minutes in a match that totally doesn't require it).
I can't tell you how happy it makes me to hear someone else say this shit. I love Ospreay just like everyone else does but you can figure out how much is left in every match by ticking boxes. "This isn't the finish, he hasn't done the Robinson Special or the backflip into a Ligerbomb yet." When everyone was impressed at the match he got out of Douki I felt like I'd gone insane. Why the fuck is it taking the best junior in the company 23 minutes to beat Douki?
I think you guys are really off-base with any of the Ospreay bashing especially in 2019 BUT I will 100% agree with you that it bothers me when matches between two people who should be in totally different classes goes 20+

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by Danwaka » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:53 pm

PrivateRadio87 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:40 pm
armsofsleep wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:08 pm
And KENTA can't really just beat the shit out of Ospreay and be a dick because Ospreay is contractually obligated to hit all of his spots in every single match (and also go over 20 minutes in a match that totally doesn't require it).
I can't tell you how happy it makes me to hear someone else say this shit. I love Ospreay just like everyone else does but you can figure out how much is left in every match by ticking boxes. "This isn't the finish, he hasn't done the Robinson Special or the backflip into a Ligerbomb yet." When everyone was impressed at the match he got out of Douki I felt like I'd gone insane. Why the fuck is it taking the best junior in the company 23 minutes to beat Douki?
I'm going to have to start paying more attention to Ospreay matches.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:01 am

Ric Flair did the turnbuckle flip, face flop, top rope slam, etc every match

Okada has the dropkick, tombstone, neckbreaker, etc

Cena five moves of doom

Bret Hart with the turnbuckle chest bump, backbreaker, second rope elbow drop, etc

Name a great wrestler and I will give you their formula. It only annoys you if you dont like the wrestler.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by armsofsleep » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:34 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:01 am
Ric Flair did the turnbuckle flip, face flop, top rope slam, etc every match

Okada has the dropkick, tombstone, neckbreaker, etc

Cena five moves of doom

Bret Hart with the turnbuckle chest bump, backbreaker, second rope elbow drop, etc

Name a great wrestler and I will give you their formula. It only annoys you if you dont like the wrestler.
Hero





Anyway a formula isn’t the problem. A lot of great wrestlers have formulas like you said. The problem is when all of your matches feel the same regardless of opponent. Ospreay in 2019 basically works everyone the same. It’s a shame because I think he was actually better at mixing things up as a junior.

Ultimately it’s not even really an Ospreay specific criticism for me, more of an issue I have with NJPW’s house style where the main event stuff always feel same-y. Even the juniors and heavies are getting close and closer in style. I miss variety.

I think about something like peak EVOLVE. In the span of 6 months, you might get Thatcher vs Gulak, Riddle vs Hero, ZSJ vs Lio Rush, WALTER vs Yehi, Ethan Page vs Darby Allin.... you have all sorts of wrestlers with different strengths and weaknesses and formulas but they all get a chance to put on these weird matches in a variety of styles.

Even the hossfights in modern NJPW feel stale. When’s the last time we had a match that felt like Suzuki/Styles? Hell, what about Shibata/Ishii? This is why something like Mickey/Ishii feels like a huge breath of fresh air just because they do some dumb shit and a cool table spot.


Another thing maybe hurting Ospreay in this department is that he doesn’t often string his signature spots well together. Okada’s tombstone is always a setup, his dropkick is usually a counter into something else, his offense generally flows in a way that makes sense. Something like the aforementioned Liger Bomb spot is just never going to serve as anything but a meaningless nearfall no one will ever fall for.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TripleMania, G1 Climax Final Stretch, SummerSlam Weekend

Post by PrivateRadio87 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:36 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:01 am
Ric Flair did the turnbuckle flip, face flop, top rope slam, etc every match

Okada has the dropkick, tombstone, neckbreaker, etc

Cena five moves of doom

Bret Hart with the turnbuckle chest bump, backbreaker, second rope elbow drop, etc

Name a great wrestler and I will give you their formula. It only annoys you if you dont like the wrestler.
Sure, everyone's got their signature spots, but Ospreay has what feels like a dozen of them and almost never leaves one out of a match.

And I gotta make sure I squeeze this in again - I love Ospreay, think he's WOTY, think his matches still manage to be pretty varied (I really don't think they "same" criticism would come up if he wasn't in BOSJ and G1 back to back), all that stuff. It's a small complaint!
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