VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Talk about shows from the Voices of Wrestling podcast network and argue with us here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Rich Kraetsch
Site Admin
Posts: 2162
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:12 pm
Location: Wheaton, IL
Contact:

VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 am

Better late than never Flagship featuring quick hitters on AEW ticket sales for their TNT debut, the NJPW/ROH relationship, Gunner Miller, Kento/Zeus, NOAH N1 Victory, AAA TripleMania preview, Harley Race thoughts, and a thorough, deep-dive analysis of Japanese business in 2019 across 8 promotions



MP3: https://audioboom.com/posts/7332612-vow ... a-more.mp3

User avatar
Ferrante207
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:39 am
Location: MAINE

Re: VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by Ferrante207 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:52 pm

The best Harley Race shit I've seen IMO are the Jumbo matches. Both guys have a similar style (as Joe mentioned: throwing big bombs, huge impact power moves) and bring the best out of each other.

I have a question for puro fans: does a company doing mediocre/poorly business wise affect your fandom? Do you dig your heels in and support more?

I wish we could be more open and less judgmental on wrestling twitter. I like when wrestlers are authentic and open up. (AB's Jarek interview prob being the best thing). It's ok to be bitter. Had Miller framed it in a diff, maybe more sympathetic way, his bitterness and feeling passed over could be a rallying cry. I'd take Joe's suggestion a step further and a do a Tony Kuzina style shoot on some twerp (fake of course but sell it as real on SM). Manufacture some controversy.

Triplemania rules and is by far the best time on wrestling twitter. Everyone puts their differences aside to watch this wacky lucha shit.

User avatar
BlizzardAcolyte
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:14 pm

Re: VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:48 pm

Many thx for going over N-1 real quick; I would argue that, given how Marufuji is trying to step out of the main event spotlight, I wouldn't be surprised if he's fine with dropping a fall to Hammerstone to keep himself out of the Block A running. Alex is gonna end up 2-2 in his block, mark it now. On the other side, don't be surprised if you see Kenoh storm through (as 2017's winner) through Block B 4-0.

Can we check to see if "Too Good" Rich didn't just take this POST opportunity to sneak in a little more vacation time? He probably took the week off from the show when he only really needed two days at most.
Last edited by BlizzardAcolyte on Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

Bloodbuzz Bunk
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:50 pm

Re: VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:30 am

Going over those numbers for the Japanese promotions, would it ever make sense for some of these companies to merge or some to fold and the talent get scooped up by others? AJPW has a top of the card star and all the trademarked history( Carnival and such) that it feels like if they could just absorb the key guys of Big Japan or absorb NOAH( come home NOAH) wholesale than it would give them time to develop some new guys keeping the top of the card interesting with Miyahara.

User avatar
Danwaka
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 8:15 pm
Location: Amman, Jordan

Re: VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by Danwaka » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:32 am

Ferrante207 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:52 pm
I have a question for puro fans: does a company doing mediocre/poorly business wise affect your fandom? Do you dig your heels in and support more?
Not for me. As a follow-along fan more than a live-events fan, there isn't much that could piss me off. Maybe if the promotions were more commercially accessible (not on them, I currently don't have a bank account that can pay for things online) I'd be more discerning, but when I'm restricted to Purodream and Taima I tend to take shows as I can get them.
BlizzardAcolyte wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:48 pm
Many thx for going over N-1 real quick; I would argue that, given how Marufuji is trying to step out of the main event spotlight, I wouldn't be surprised if he's fine with dropping a fall to Hammerstone to keep himself out of the Block A running. Alex is gonna end up 2-2 in his block, mark it now. On the other side, don't be surprised if you see Kenoh storm through (as last year's winner) through Block B 4-0.
Sound logic on Marufuji. He's really in a position like Liger to make new gaijin stars mean something more.
Can we check to see if "Too Good" Rich didn't just take this POST opportunity to sneak in a little more vacation time? He probably took the week off from the show when he only really needed two days at most.
In the finest indie fashion, Rich double-booked himself and then picked the indie with better promotional opportunities.
Bloodbuzz Bunk wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:30 am
Going over those numbers for the Japanese promotions, would it ever make sense for some of these companies to merge or some to fold and the talent get scooped up by others? AJPW has a top of the card star and all the trademarked history( Carnival and such) that it feels like if they could just absorb the key guys of Big Japan or absorb NOAH( come home NOAH) wholesale than it would give them time to develop some new guys keeping the top of the card interesting with Miyahara.
I think I've been wanting this as a casual since 2013 / 2014 when both companies were at a nadir? More the AJPW / NOAH thing than AJPW / BJW, since nobody casual pays attention to BJW beyond their core four or five Strong Division guys. I think I only got over it in 2016 when NOAH restarted without NJPW and AJPW was finally making gains (and when I started being more of a fan), but certainly Marufuji coming back for Champion Carnival reopened those feelings.

User avatar
Rich Kraetsch
Site Admin
Posts: 2162
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:12 pm
Location: Wheaton, IL
Contact:

Re: VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:48 pm

BlizzardAcolyte wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:48 pm
Can we check to see if "Too Good" Rich didn't just take this POST opportunity to sneak in a little more vacation time? He probably took the week off from the show when he only really needed two days at most.
For the record, I did the POST Wrestling show while in my car eating my lunch during a 13-hour workday so yeah.

User avatar
armsofsleep
Posts: 368
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:48 pm

Re: VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by armsofsleep » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:57 pm

I think being along for the ride for a buzzworthy promotion is fun, and it's always cool to see companies do well, but as a NOAH ride or die I've learned that people are just going to shit on your favorite promotion for jokes even when it's really good inside the ring.


I do think that people need to stop conflating the quality of booking/wrestling with business though. Lots of "this booking isn't working because the business isnt' reflecting it" or even worse "this booking is good because the business is reflecting it". It's not like we think a movie must be good because lots of people are watching it, so why do that with wrestling?

In my mind, NOAH has been booked perfectly in the main event scene over the past year. I wasn't the biggest Kiyomiya fan in the world but he's become way more endearing because the story has been so well told. After the misstep of Kenoh's heel story not totally working I think it's pretty perfect. Would is be awesome if NOAH's business boomed to match the story? Sure. But I don't think that somehow Dragon Gate's booking is better because their business is better all of a sudden.


Another interesting thing is the notion of regional business (touched on a big in both the DDT and AJPW sections). Is a company "bigger" if they draw more nationwide vs in a specific region? What does streaming service/TV stuff factor into this? Obviously it's really hard when we don't have a lot of the numbers (and streaming services in Japan especially are such a mystery). But I think you could make the case for DDT as a sort of Japanese PWG: solid business that always makes money, always draws great in a very specific home base, gets big names and usually has a sort of underlying buzz (albeit sometimes more through gifs/videos than anything else)...... it's a really interesting case study. Consider how many people in America viewed TNA as the number two promotion in the country long after relevance because of it's TV deal and name recognition among casual fans. Even when it was getting outdrawn by random regional indies!

User avatar
mlev76
Posts: 2526
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:32 pm
Location: New York, New York
Contact:

Re: VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by mlev76 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:12 pm

As one of the crotchety old fogies Joe mentioned who saw the end of Race's run, I actually really liked a lot of what he did in Crocket, AWA and WWF. The Flair Starrcade much has the problems Joe outlined, but there was a match on the second Flair DVD which was even by modern eyes 4 1/2 stars. He had a really fun match with Rick Martel at WrestleRock right before both ended up in WWF.

His WWF runs had a lot of underrated highs. He was involved in a tremendous MSG tag match with Orndorff against Hogan and Piper when them teaming was a huge deal. He was probably one of the best Hogan opponents during his first reign besides Savage and Orndorff. And the SNME with the table break is a classic moment right after Hogan lost the belt.

Most importantly, you can see how much he gave back post in ring career. His work with Lex Luger never did much, but man, was he a huge part of what made Vader so big in WCW. Couple that with his outside work with WLW and being a continuous positive presence even up to his last days and he clearly is a larger than life figure in this business.

User avatar
Joe Lanza
Site Admin
Posts: 2715
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:00 pm

Re: VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:10 pm

armsofsleep wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:57 pm
I think being along for the ride for a buzzworthy promotion is fun, and it's always cool to see companies do well, but as a NOAH ride or die I've learned that people are just going to shit on your favorite promotion for jokes even when it's really good inside the ring.


I do think that people need to stop conflating the quality of booking/wrestling with business though. Lots of "this booking isn't working because the business isnt' reflecting it" or even worse "this booking is good because the business is reflecting it". It's not like we think a movie must be good because lots of people are watching it, so why do that with wrestling?

In my mind, NOAH has been booked perfectly in the main event scene over the past year. I wasn't the biggest Kiyomiya fan in the world but he's become way more endearing because the story has been so well told. After the misstep of Kenoh's heel story not totally working I think it's pretty perfect. Would is be awesome if NOAH's business boomed to match the story? Sure. But I don't think that somehow Dragon Gate's booking is better because their business is better all of a sudden.


Another interesting thing is the notion of regional business (touched on a big in both the DDT and AJPW sections). Is a company "bigger" if they draw more nationwide vs in a specific region? What does streaming service/TV stuff factor into this? Obviously it's really hard when we don't have a lot of the numbers (and streaming services in Japan especially are such a mystery). But I think you could make the case for DDT as a sort of Japanese PWG: solid business that always makes money, always draws great in a very specific home base, gets big names and usually has a sort of underlying buzz (albeit sometimes more through gifs/videos than anything else)...... it's a really interesting case study. Consider how many people in America viewed TNA as the number two promotion in the country long after relevance because of it's TV deal and name recognition among casual fans. Even when it was getting outdrawn by random regional indies!
I haven't listened back, but I don't think I "shit" on NOAH. I probably shit on AJPW, and I took a massive dump on BJW.

As far as conflating quality of booking with business. It all depends on how you view booking and the job of the booker.

Undoubtedly, the job of a pro wrestling booker is to book wrestlers, angles, and matches that draw money. That is the job description. Full stop. Whether those wrestlers, angles, and matches appeal to me is secondary when I assess the performance of a booker. The WWE Attitude Era was an objectively well booked period of pro wrestling from the perspective of giving people what they wanted and hitting on all chords even if I personally hated it so much that it not only drove me from WWE but also turned me off so much that it led to my greatest period of disinterest in wrestling overall in my life. It would be incredibly foolish as a pundit or analyst to say Vince McMahon did a shitty job of booking his territory during this period when he achieved the objective of his position perhaps better than anyone else ever - presenting wrestlers, angles, and matches that appealed to the widest possible audience and drew money.

Of course, you may not care about any of that, and may simply view bookers through the lens of whether they deliver compelling stories for you. That's fine. When I break down booking, I combine a whole lot of the previous paragraph with some of this paragraph, and a dash of "ok, they are doing well/not so well, but could they be doing better/worse if some things were tightened up/adjusted? Is this booker wholly responsible, somewhat responsible, or somewhere in between for the success? Where are things moving? What are the long term signs?". This is where it becomes more subjective and deeper critical analysis enters the discussion.

Where I think people get into heated discussions about booking/bookers, where you get wild variance like "Gedo is the best ever!", "Are you crazy, Gedo fucking sucks! He's the worst!", is that people are viewing booking through two totally different lenses and are having different conversations without realizing it. This is why I've basically stopped discussing booking with people unless I know they are approaching it the way I do, with business at the forefront, and you go from there and inject subjective analysis. Using Gedo as the example again, it's a waste of time discussing booking with someone who is mad that New Japan doesn't push their faves or doesnt like Jay White or something. They are 100% correct in disliking the booking, because they are coming at it from a perspective of "it does not appeal to me and I am not entertained". And that's fine. But I break this stuff down based on whether the booker is successful at his job, not whether I like what he is doing, although there is nothing wrong with noting both or pointing out warning signs or signs of life. It is possible for a successful promotion to be poorly booked and vice versa, but these are arguments that must be made with some evidence beyond "I don't like [the star]" and other such subjectivity. Otherwise, we are just talking raw opinions, and I have about as much interest in that in regards to booking as I would in discussing why I like a song and you don't. What's the point? It appeals to me, it doesn't to you, and after five minutes or so there is nothing else really to discuss on the matter.

As far as NOAH, and I hope this was expressed, I don't know where the Kiyomiya thing will eventually land, but as noted im a bit worried they've rushed the whole deal (while understanding why they did so). I'm largely "wait & see" on it, while pointing out that it has not captured the attention of people or produced any growth (yet). Nor has it been a bust. We'll see. If it eventually clicks, then you have a good argument that you were right and it was all booked "perfectly" all along. But are we having the same conversation? I'm not sure. To me, he still comes off like a young boy forced too early into the role, and he needs to start kicking peoples asses. I think it has a better chance to click once that happens. My issue is actually more with match layouts than booking, if you want to get real granular about it.

Next point

Regional business isnt everything or I'd put AJPW or NOAH ahead of DDT which is absurd. But when all else is relatively equal, it matters. I can't slot DDT ahead of Dragon Gate when Dragon Gate has good TV exposure and draws all over the country while DDT is essentially a Tokyo promotion. If DDT was blowing Dragon Gate out of the water like they do everyone else, it wouldnt matter. But at the end of the day you could slot either at #2 and im not going to go to war over it. AJPW over either of them? No, that is dumb, uninformed, and deserves to be called out for blatant stupidity.

User avatar
Danwaka
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 8:15 pm
Location: Amman, Jordan

Re: VOW Flagship: AEW TNT Debut, NJPW/ROH, TripleMania & more!

Post by Danwaka » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:00 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:10 pm
I haven't listened back, but I don't think I "shit" on NOAH. I probably shit on AJPW, and I took a massive dump on BJW.
I don't think he was necessarily referring to you, more a general context. You definitely did take massive dumps on AJPW and BJW, though the AJPW stuff was a lot more in-depth in detailing the company's lassie-faire attitude in pushing new stars, Zeus's failure to build Osaka for AJPW and Jake Lee's lack of growth. With BJW you spent some time saying the Strong Division wasn't holding it's weight and that the Deathmatch Division was doing better because of last year's big feuds but not enough to carry the slack, but not much on their own issues in elevating new guys. At one point you made the point / ruminated that the only difference between AJPW and NOAH was that one company had Kento and the other didn't, and that if AJPW didn't have Kento then they'd be nowhere near NOAH right now.

That said, you unfairly slandered Violent Giants as stale challengers for Kento in my opinion, given they've yet to be given a singular concrete tag title run at the main event since teaming up and instead have just been trading the titles in a meandering fashion. I have to say that Shuji Ishikawa's booking since joining the company has been mixed grains at best, starting when he dropped the title. Partially injuries sure, but man has he not felt like a priority and his star has dimmed under Akiyama.

Post Reply