VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:01 am

It's the big WrestleMania Weekend review. Join us as we break down the attendance figures of over 40 shows, plus look at some of the big stories coming out of the weekend including Sasha Banks and Enzo Amore. Plus, full detailed reviews of WrestleMania and ROH/NJPW MSG.



MP3: https://audioboom.com/posts/7232466-vow ... nia-35.mp3


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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by mlev76 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:16 pm

I'm glad Joe's past descriptions of his show viewing habits allowed me the chance to meet the man himself. Nice meeting you even if I missed the Mega Power handshake. I can at least now say I'm met both Voices even if not at the same time.

I think your views and comparisons between Mania and MSG come from a place of your own perspective and experience and obviously, MSG resonated much more. I was live for both, enjoyed both, but would put Mania ahead of MSG. Why? Because going to Mania was something I always wanted to do, never got to, didn't even expect to go this year and yet somehow last minute got a great seat. To me, there were no negative moments and the big moments (Seth, Kofi, even Finn and Becky) worked live where they might not have from the comforts of my home. MSG, on the other hand, had three low points, two of which you mentioned. The third was the length of the ladder match which, from where I was sitting, people were hating. It went so long I had to leave before the Okada match and had to watch said match from my phone. The ROH stuff, while not horrible, did drag down the show and made some of the New Japan stuff less than they could have been (Tanahashi/ZSJ especially).

Overall, comparing the two is not necessary on my end whereas I get where it was from yours. Overall, it was an awesome week of shows and renewed my love of wrestling.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by maq » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:28 pm

So I paused the show when Joe introduced his little ranking exercise and did it for myself, but I included NXT from Friday night as well. The conclusion I drew is that I think comparisons to Takeover have a way bigger part in the muddled reception of the MSG show than comparisons to Mania, which people consider to be (I know, I know) About The Moments™. Because even if I disagree with the apparent consensus take that Gargano/Cole was either the best match of the weekend or the best WWE match of all time (I thought it was perhaps the 3rd best match on its own show at "merely" really good), I had 4 of the 5 matches from Takeover crack my Top 10 across the three shows, with the fifth sitting at #12. And while I had 5 matches from MSG in the top 10 as well, the worst matches from MSG were waaay down the list, and even if I choose not to contest Joe's take that giving the Iiconics the titles was the worst booking decision of the weekend, #2 and #3 for me are hiring the FreeAgentZ nZo&CazXL (ugh) and the Beautiful People.
If I could cut the worst 2 hours of the MSG show out of my consideration, I think it's the show of the weekend - I certainly enjoyed being there live. But I can't honestly do that, and I think a lot of other people aren't even considering it.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by avengers23 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:02 pm

The Australians and the Germans I was sitting with at La Boom and then saw at MSG seemed to navigate NYC just fine, Joe.

I was also at MSG, and the crowd in my section died a quiet death during the Bully Ray bit and during the ladder match. It seemed to really depend on where you were.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by FilipPejic » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:38 pm

Does the attendance for Chikara and Black Label Pro acount for Phil Baroni because apparently he passed out at the venue after drinking after bloodsport. He woke up during the chikara show and apparently called the whisper during the show and security had to talk to him about his language

Edit: I don’t think joe realize the winner of the honor rumble gets a future world title shot, so I think it was a mistake that king cause no is buying a ticket to watch raven vs king. If I was roh I would have pick liger to win because the fact more people will want to see the match so you will sell more tickets and it s liger s farewell tour you will attract audience. He would have obviously put over taven, so it would have been win win if they did that.
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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by armsofsleep » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:58 am

The attendance stuff was great, but the MSG/Mania comparison was sort of melting my brain a bit. I haven’t watched any WWE match since the UK takeover and I’ve seen every NJPW show but I thought Mania was easily better than MSG.

Dunno if it’s the live vs tape thing or what, but I thought Shane/Miz was better than any match on MSG other than the IC title match. If you can’t get behind Shane falling off of a golf cart and fracturing his skull I don’t know what to tell you. And I think Mania had three matches better than anything in MSG not counting that IC match. And like I said, I have no investment in WWE at all because I mostly despise them.

Obviously it’s not completely useless to use Grappl ratings to find “consensus” but I do think the fact that basically it’s entire user base is made of VOW listeners so it’s very heavy on a few approved solutions means it’s not a very good cross section of anything other than that specific group. Like with Cagematch and Wreddit, it suffers from a silent majority of fans who throw massive ratings at anything hyped in the Meltzer sphere.

Anyway don’t expect this to change opinions or anything, just was surprised how convicted you were about a viewpoint I couldn’t really understand.

Also phewwwwwww does Jay White still suck. And I loved the WK match, but I thought this was back to his usual 3 star special self. Glad he’s good at getting heat but so is Nia Jax And Atleast her strikes look like they actually hurt.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by suplexberry » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:37 am

I'm a European who's been to multiple foreign cities and I've been to New York and I've even had to hustle my way to Jersey a few times (Newark, hungover, long story!). It's not impossible, if you have knowledge of how public transport systems work. There is obviously a learning curve, too, so some people will be lost. I come from a city with TWO subway lines and have heard many a tale of people getting lost (jumping on the wrong line when it forks at the eastern end of the line). I think the Jersey portion adds to the confusion, but with modern technology navigating just about any city is okay. Google Maps or Citymapper will get you there, and approximate time to get there. I would say somebody used to driving will have a harder time navigating it all.

Still, all the apps in the world won't save you if you bought tickets and didn't calculate the distances between venues in advance.

Anyway, really fun show. I only watched selected matches from Mania, and most of NXT (though watching NXT lead me to the stark realization that I need to take a self-imposed prolonged break from wrestling because nothing that I saw got me excited, and the crowd going wild on screen made it definitely seem like it was a me-issue, not an issue with what was happening in-ring). It's such a bummer that the main event turned out as it did. I would've loved for the first women's WM main to be more of a memorable match. The threeway stip didn't help, the length seemed too much.. I think it's true this will be remembered as Kofi's WM, but hopefully people also remember Becky's rise culminating here, even if the story to get there wasn't the best.

Joe, I hope to GOD you're wrong about Enzo being a net positive to ROH. Instagram followers can be bought and manipulated in various ways, but I'm sure some of those followers are genuine fans. It just feels like it so strongly goes against the idea and brand reputation that ROH has tried to put forward, even though these rockier times. I'm sure Enzo will always be able to hustle gigs in some form of entertainment - does Soundcloud rap scene really welcome him? idk - but I always get the sense wrestling fans dumped him for good after the scandal. Your characterization of him back when it happened was "trashy" and tbh it rings true to this day. Fans who liked the character turned against the guy so hard when the accusations came out, and his continuing disrespect to the industry has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Now there's rumors of multi-year deals with downsides, which, if true, means ROH is riding this bad decision for a couple of years, sink or swim. I really wonder what ROH is gonna look like in a year under the Bully Ray influence.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:30 am

Fwiw, Mike Spears researched Enzo's instagram and about 775k followers are real. I know next to nothing about IG, but people have told me that like Twitter, any account with that many followers is going to have significant bots/fakes/etc and his account is pretty much in line percentage wise in that regard.

The next highest number of IG followers we could find on the ROH roster was Scurll with 225k (we didnt check, but subtract a few thousand bots if you like).

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:31 am

Kenny King - I thought I did note that the winner recieved a future title shot. Thats one of the reasons I had no problem with the finish.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:36 am

As far as GRAPPL being VOW listeners, Idk about that. They currently have about 5000 users. I have just over 800 followers, Rich has like 700 or something.

I do agree there is probably heavy crossover to the Meltzerspere in regards to GRAPPL (and a lesser extent, cagematch), but I do think it's useful to use both to cross reference general consensus. Obviously it's not a be all, end all. I'm open to other rating comparison points outside GRAPPL, cagematch, and WON, but honestly I'm not aware of any.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by Danwaka » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:43 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:31 am
Kenny King - I thought I did note that the winner recieved a future title shot. Thats one of the reasons I had no problem with the finish.
King vs. Taven is a double heel main event, though. I'm surprised you were fine with that, unless you think Taven is going to get turned face somehow.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:51 am

Danwaka wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:43 am
Joe Lanza wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:31 am
Kenny King - I thought I did note that the winner recieved a future title shot. Thats one of the reasons I had no problem with the finish.
King vs. Taven is a double heel main event, though. I'm surprised you were fine with that, unless you think Taven is going to get turned face somehow.
King has been angling for a title shot in storyline for months, and has been trying to cheat his way to one the entire time, so finally sleazing his way into one (and getting massive heat in the process) was a nice bit of booking to me.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by Danwaka » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:55 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:51 am
Danwaka wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:43 am
Joe Lanza wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:31 am
Kenny King - I thought I did note that the winner recieved a future title shot. Thats one of the reasons I had no problem with the finish.
King vs. Taven is a double heel main event, though. I'm surprised you were fine with that, unless you think Taven is going to get turned face somehow.
King has been angling for a title shot in storyline for months, and has been trying to cheat his way to one the entire time, so finally sleazing his way into one (and getting massive heat in the process) was a nice bit of booking to me.
I was thinking more about the mechanics of a heel vs. heel main event than King's storytelling. I personally don't have an issue with that, even if I do think spoiling the fan mood and not going with Liger was a miss. I know you always say that Liger is happy losing, but him losing to Taven in a title defense would have met that and given ROH a draw to prop up those thinning attendances you mentioned regarding Enzo.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WrestleMania Weekend Review, G1 Supercard & WrestleMania 35

Post by Danwaka » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:42 am

The numbers are interesting on attendances. The top five parties to walk out of WrestleMania Weekend (excluding NJPW, ROH and WWE) are GCW (counting all 4 shows means they blow everyone else out of the water by 1500+ tickets), IMPACT, Joey Ryan, RPW and Sami Callihan. You can throw in Wrestlecon as well, but I don't know really know what they were doing for matches and I know they had Joey sell his dick holding pictures so that kind of goes to him as well.

It's also telling that there's a big gap between the companies that did 1000 or more and those that did around 600. Not a single company did anything in-between 650 and 1,000 tickets sold. And of the companies that did 500 to 750, four of them were American (BLACKCRAFT, EVOLVE, HOG and SHIMMER) and two were Japanese (DDT and STARDOM). Of the four American promotions, BLACKCRAFT has only run four shows and is the youngest by far.

If you go further down to the companies that did between 250 and 500, you only get two international promotions in ISW and WXW, with the rest being American independents running over to the Northeast for the weekend. And going lower than 250 gets you a bunch of names most people probably don't pay attention to online.

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