F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

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wac
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by wac » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:34 pm



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mlev76
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by mlev76 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:56 pm

Dave discussing Rhonda Rousey on SNL as if it were a match/fight. Talking about the cast setting her up with spots etc. Just amazing "in the bubble" talk.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by mlev76 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:45 pm

I made it less than 4 minutes into the Cornette/Dave/Bryan circle jerk before tapping out. I mean, Cornette has his own show every week-why does he need to go on another show and spew the same shit? He clearly doesn't know anything about modern wrestling (he said the other day that WWE only drew 400,000 fans to events last year, claims almost no one makes any money anymore) and is just part of the 'bitching about wrestling' subculture.

Right now, how is he different than Russo?

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by mlev76 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:54 pm



According to the Observer this week, without counting NXT, WWE drew over 30,000 fans in a week. Multiply that by 52 and Corny is just a tad off.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by cbacon87 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:34 pm

I really don't get why you'd have Cornette on (well, I do). There's going to be two outcomes to that show- one, Dave and Cornette argue at each other and you get bad audio or two, what apparently happened, they just let Cornette say stuff he's already said on a different show for free and offer nothing substantial in response, opening themselves up for criticism for doing so.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by supersonic » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:30 pm

I cannot fathom listening to Russo or Cornette in 2016.

Anyone who states "But Russo/Cornette says..." gets immediately dismissed by me.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by rovert » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:40 pm

Russo is pretty decent on the WrestlingInc podcasts to be honest.

Yeah imagine if Bryan and Dave got someone who actually has watched and understood Lucha Underground on to discuss it or oppose Jim Cornette.
Last edited by rovert on Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Morten VH » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:22 pm

I really don't value either persons opinion, but i feel like while out there, at least Russo tries to give constructive criticism. His ideas are wacky, but at least he explains why he dislikes something and follows up with his opinion of what would work better. Cornette just shits on stuff and moves on.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by BillThompson » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:55 pm

The problem with Cornette being on any Observer related show is that Dave thinks of him as a friend and still views him as a valuable resource. Dave's complete silence over Cornette's repeated instances of homophobia, racism, misogyny, and Islamophobia have nailed that point home. Dave doesn't view him as someone who will draw criticism from the audience, because Dave sees only a friend, not what everyone else seems to see.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by mlev76 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:30 pm

He also happens to be a massive hypocrite. When you decry realism in wrestling or the lack thereof and yet have this on your resume:


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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Bix » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:19 am

mlev76 wrote:He also happens to be a massive hypocrite. When you decry realism in wrestling or the lack thereof and yet have this on your resume:

I'm just going to assume you didn't watch the video and just saw that it included both Jim Cornette and a wrestling bear in some form.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by mlev76 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:48 am

Bix wrote:
mlev76 wrote:He also happens to be a massive hypocrite. When you decry realism in wrestling or the lack thereof and yet have this on your resume:

I'm just going to assume you didn't watch the video and just saw that it included both Jim Cornette and a wrestling bear in some form.
Point is Jim's argument about the purity of wrestling and it being real is hogwash. Its also not like he has steered away from it himself, from commentating on this to wrestling a Ninja Turtle in SMW.

He really should stick to discussing old wrestling as he is usually entertaining and knowledgeable. He hasn't contributed anything to modern wrestling in years, clearly hates it and has worn out his welcome across the board.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Bix » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:04 am

mlev76 wrote:
Bix wrote:
mlev76 wrote:He also happens to be a massive hypocrite. When you decry realism in wrestling or the lack thereof and yet have this on your resume:

I'm just going to assume you didn't watch the video and just saw that it included both Jim Cornette and a wrestling bear in some form.
Point is Jim's argument about the purity of wrestling and it being real is hogwash. Its also not like he has steered away from it himself, from commentating on this to wrestling a Ninja Turtle in SMW.

He really should stick to discussing old wrestling as he is usually entertaining and knowledgeable. He hasn't contributed anything to modern wrestling in years, clearly hates it and has worn out his welcome across the board.
Again, I'm not sure you understand what that video is.

When VCI put out the Wrestling Gold set on DVD (as well as some OVW and SMW stuff when Jim still owned the rights), they had Dave and Jim record a second commentary track to give historical context to the matches. One of the matches was the above, and someone ripped it to YouTube with the secondary commentary track included.

"He really should stick to discussing old wrestling as he is usually entertaining and knowledgeable." So...yeah.

Also, you and just about everyone misses his point: When he talks about realism he just means easy/willing suspension of disbelief. Everyone has always known it's not on the up and up. But a little mystery and plausible deniability went a long way. There are levels, of course, and certain things worked better in certain territories. Just maintain an internal logic and don't be too ridiculous.

It's different today because the changes in communication meant the genie would be out of the bottle in a big way no matter what (the Scientology OT Level stuff has been online for what, 15+ years now? and that's WAY more protected than kayfabe), so you have to roll with the punches. I'm not philosophically opposed to what Lucha Underground is trying to do in theory (use pro wrestling as a medium for other kinds of storytelling; in their case it's a weird wacky pulpy fantasy), but they're also trying to have it both ways with the formatting of the TV show (it goes back and forth between a genre drama and a wrestling show), how their contracts are structured, talking about touring, etc.

As an aside about Lucha Underground: The "regular TV" trappings have led to their fans treating it like it's a prestige drama, and it's made said fans insufferable, worse than ROH fans ever were back in the day. That casts a shadow over the enjoyability of the show, like with Justin LaBar's weird troll article for TribLive from last week; http://triblive.com/sports/prowrestling ... -wrestling: "The depth of a character like Prince Puma is too much, and we need to keep it simple with characters like the Dirty White Boy?"

I think Jim's issues with current wrestling would be different if he was more technologically inclined. There'd be a lot more for him to check out more easily, including CMLL, where the booking style and some of the work is more up his alley. But he's admittedly terrible with it and would rather just watch his old tapes.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by mlev76 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:56 pm

Bix wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
Bix wrote: I'm just going to assume you didn't watch the video and just saw that it included both Jim Cornette and a wrestling bear in some form.
Point is Jim's argument about the purity of wrestling and it being real is hogwash. Its also not like he has steered away from it himself, from commentating on this to wrestling a Ninja Turtle in SMW.

He really should stick to discussing old wrestling as he is usually entertaining and knowledgeable. He hasn't contributed anything to modern wrestling in years, clearly hates it and has worn out his welcome across the board.
Again, I'm not sure you understand what that video is.

When VCI put out the Wrestling Gold set on DVD (as well as some OVW and SMW stuff when Jim still owned the rights), they had Dave and Jim record a second commentary track to give historical context to the matches. One of the matches was the above, and someone ripped it to YouTube with the secondary commentary track included.

"He really should stick to discussing old wrestling as he is usually entertaining and knowledgeable." So...yeah.

Also, you and just about everyone misses his point: When he talks about realism he just means easy/willing suspension of disbelief. Everyone has always known it's not on the up and up. But a little mystery and plausible deniability went a long way. There are levels, of course, and certain things worked better in certain territories. Just maintain an internal logic and don't be too ridiculous.

It's different today because the changes in communication meant the genie would be out of the bottle in a big way no matter what (the Scientology OT Level stuff has been online for what, 15+ years now? and that's WAY more protected than kayfabe), so you have to roll with the punches. I'm not philosophically opposed to what Lucha Underground is trying to do in theory (use pro wrestling as a medium for other kinds of storytelling; in their case it's a weird wacky pulpy fantasy), but they're also trying to have it both ways with the formatting of the TV show (it goes back and forth between a genre drama and a wrestling show), how their contracts are structured, talking about touring, etc.

As an aside about Lucha Underground: The "regular TV" trappings have led to their fans treating it like it's a prestige drama, and it's made said fans insufferable, worse than ROH fans ever were back in the day. That casts a shadow over the enjoyability of the show, like with Justin LaBar's weird troll article for TribLive from last week; http://triblive.com/sports/prowrestling ... -wrestling: "The depth of a character like Prince Puma is too much, and we need to keep it simple with characters like the Dirty White Boy?"

I think Jim's issues with current wrestling would be different if he was more technologically inclined. There'd be a lot more for him to check out more easily, including CMLL, where the booking style and some of the work is more up his alley. But he's admittedly terrible with it and would rather just watch his old tapes.
I am quite aware of what Wrestling Gold is and was as well as what Cornette's role with it was. It's really not very complicated and easy to understand.

"Willing suspension of disbelief." Please explain to me how it is easier to believe a bear and a human can have an organized wrestling fight than some of what we see on LU. They're not trying to have it both ways since there's no one out there saying "Hey, we want you to believe this is real now. But, now, when Drago is spitting fire or Aero Star is flying, that is fake." It really is a tv show about a wrestling promotion right now which just so happens to be consumed mostly by rabid pro wrestling fans and not many others.

I think Jim's problems with the current product are related in part to personal taste, but also related to his bitterness of now being completely on the outside looking in. He is now in the same 'outsider' category as his archenemy Russo and many fans don't differentiate between him and Russo because they are both essentially well known trolls with their comments about many of the favorites of the hardcores. Cornette's saving grace is when he discusses old wrestling and is actually passionate and enjoyable to listen to. On modern wrestling? I'd rather slice my hand open and pour vinegr on the wound.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by kjharris » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:13 pm

Bix wrote:As an aside about Lucha Underground: The "regular TV" trappings have led to their fans treating it like it's a prestige drama, and it's made said fans insufferable, worse than ROH fans ever were back in the day. That casts a shadow over the enjoyability of the show, like with Justin LaBar's weird troll article for TribLive from last week; http://triblive.com/sports/prowrestling ... -wrestling: "The depth of a character like Prince Puma is too much, and we need to keep it simple with characters like the Dirty White Boy?"
Not sure how you can complain about people who react to a troll by responding back in kind, in much politer fashion than the troll's original rant.

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