That "half decade period" is more like 2.5 to 3 years...but I'm not here to split hairs.Hobbes wrote:I don't want to argue Dylan's points for him too much, but here is a quote from his post.BoxingRobes wrote:That isn't how it reads. I don't see the Dog as a GREAT, as in all-time great draw for YEARS.
"1980-84 was the last period in North America where you had ten or more territories that could accurately be categorized as "hot," and in many cases "hot" meant "record setting" hot. During this period JYD was in the upper tier of drawing cards on Earth, perhaps the biggest, and almost certainly no worse than top 5... He took over in struggling and weak places and made them huge. New Orleans went from being perhaps the worst drawing metro area in the South of any size, to a city that was drawing around seven figures a year to wrestling events for a single promotion. The only other city on Earth that may have been doing a number like that during the period for a single promotion was NYC which has obvious advantages NO didn't and doesn't have. This is to say nothing of records Dog did in other towns."
So he said that during a half decade period JYD was a top five draw and maybe number one, that he turned a dead market into a market that rivaled NYC, and did record setting business in other towns. Again, you can debate those individual points, but if what Dylan is saying is true, that is a very good case as a draw.
With that said, its about context...his peers that were considered draws were draws for so long it makes Dog's run insignificant when relative to his peers. All of wrestling was hot. He was hot, too. But he wasn't hot for long enough for me (and again, this is all opinion anyway) for me to actually consider him more than what I think he is...which is a pretty famous guy that had a short run as a hot draw, but was an absolutely terrible worker without much influence. Like I said in a previous post...he's Terrell Davis at best...Ickey Woods at worst. Either way, not a Hall of Famer. For a short period of time, he was near the top as a draw...but relative to his peers, peers that are rattling off 10+ year careers as legit top draws, contemporaries that popped gates for decades...Dog's brief run is very nice, notable, and with context, impressive...but it doesn't fully check the box for me.
All of this is conjecture and kind of silly. We're dealing with facts here. Punk broke through, then a flood of Indy talent also broke through and was signed. I guess we can argue causation or correlation...but to me, the story is pretty obvious...I'm not sure there are many debating his influence, just when they want to reward it...now...or to "wait and see"...CM Punk broke the CM Punk ceiling. It's possible in doing so that he made WWE a little more amenable to signing US indie talent and pushing them to a certain level. If you are an undersize indie star that doesn't fit WWE's definition of a future star, the door may be open a little wider thanks to Punk. You still face considerable challenges to get a job, make it to the main roster, and then get a strong push. That is influence but is that a hall of fame level of influence? Guys from the indies did get signed before Punk. Undersized wrestlers with incredible talent did sometimes get significant pushes before Punk.I can prove it rather easily. Its common sense.
Daniel Bryan main evented WrestleMania wrestling twice.
Seth Rollins closed WrestleMania with the top title in North America.
The roster is littered with Indie guys that were signed post-Punk like Cesaro, Ambrose, Neville, Owens, Generico, etc etc etc.
Is there another wrestler in North America more qualified to check off the influence box? I would qualify the last two finishes to Mania as the feather in his cap to breaking the glass ceiling.
If Punk is such a huge influence, how come he couldn't get his best friend Colt Cabana a fair shake? If Punk broke the glass ceiling how come indie guys like Cesaro who are ultra talented get jobbed out once they get a grass roots following? How come guys like Braun Strowman are rumoured to possibly be getting big WrestleMania matches instead of him? How come indie kings like Ricohet don't get contracts off WWE tryouts? How come Joe is still in NXT?
How come Daniel Bryan languished in the upper midcard for years until a combination of the fans completely rejecting WWE's plans and Punk quitting the company forced their hand? WWE's original plan for Daniel Bryan at WrestleMania was a rematch with fucking Sheamus, with Batista/Orton and HHH/Punk being two of the top matches. The fans and Punk quitting forced them into pushing Bryan, and nothing else.
Seth Rollins is an ultra athletic six foot plus talented ass wrestler. There were guys that fit that bill that were pushed in WWE before Punk.
It's also worth asking if the influx of indie talent is due to Punk, or due to the success of NXT, the failure of WWE to train very many compelling talents themselves, and their need/desire to turn NXT into a touring brand that can steal ROH's audience. Punk doesn't have a lot to do with any of those things.
[/quote]So without Punk no US indie talent ever gets signed, WWE is magically able to train talented wrestlers, and WWE loses all desire to try and run ROH out of business to grab another sliver of the wrestling pie? Did Punk invent the WWE Network too? How about the Cotton Gin? A cure for smallpox?None of those things happen without Punk succeeding.
Without Punk, there isn't a flood of Indy talent in the WWE today...I'm not sure what the rest of this is about...silliness.