Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

User avatar
Jeff Hawkins
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:28 am

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:29 pm

All things being equal, Sting has a better case than Orton imo.

User avatar
Wiretaup
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:20 pm

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Wiretaup » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:33 pm

Jeff Hawkins wrote:All things being equal, Sting has a better case than Orton imo.
I think so too.

I'd be fine either way with Sting, but Orton shouldn't get in.

User avatar
Rob McCarron
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:21 am
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Contact:

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Rob McCarron » Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:31 pm

So does anyone out there think Samoa Joe, for example, is a better candidate that Randy Orton?
Shake Them Ropes
iTunes | Stitcher | Twitter |YouTube

User avatar
Rich Kraetsch
Site Admin
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:12 pm
Location: Wheaton, IL
Contact:

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:54 pm

Hmmm... that's an interesting one only because Joe showed some disernable drawing ability in his early TNA run but not much more than that. In-ring he's a far better worker than Orton but again, longevity is really missing.

I'd probably say Orton is better than Joe.

User avatar
Rob McCarron
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:21 am
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Contact:

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Rob McCarron » Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:59 pm

Okay, just trying to see where the line was. Because Dave thought so poorly of Joe that he didn't even include him on the ballot this year, even though he became eligible.
Rich Kraetsch wrote:Hmmm... that's an interesting one only because Joe showed some disernable drawing ability in his early TNA run but not much more than that. In-ring he's a far better worker than Orton but again, longevity is really missing.
I assume you mean longevity as a draw. Because Joe has been wrestling as long as Orton. Although, with Orton being on the road full time with WWE, Randy probably has double the number of matches.
Shake Them Ropes
iTunes | Stitcher | Twitter |YouTube

User avatar
JonnyBart
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:34 am

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by JonnyBart » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:17 pm

There is an argument, maybe better made in a couple of years, that Joe was very influential as the champion who put ROH on the map. How many current/future stars were influenced by that era of Indies/ROH? Without Joe, does it happen (can be similarly applied to Punk)? Not sure how strongly I would push that argument, but it's there. Not sure that Joe's run as a great worker is long enough to give him a bump in that category.

Meanwhile Orton is a good, sometimes great worker with no influence or sustained drawing cred. And if people want to say Orton was influential, just tell me how the wrestling business changes without Randy Orton because I really don't see it.

But I'm always gonna be biased towards that 02-07 ROH stuff because that was the wrestling I cut my teeth on and fell in love with when I became a "smart fan on the internet."

User avatar
NoLoudNoise
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:30 pm

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by NoLoudNoise » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:06 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:I think Hardy has a WAY better case than Orton. Would I vote for him? Probably not but I think he blows Orton out of the water on multiple levels.
The Hardys as a team have a great deal of influence of this millennium of tag teams that can't be ignored

I think he'll get a huge bump if he does end up returning to WWE. He was always the star of that TLC era

User avatar
Robareid
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 1025
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:38 am
Location: South East England, UK
Contact:

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Robareid » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:39 pm

Hearing that Edge was a "slam dunk" and was voted by all three guys on the latest Bauer and Pollock while none of them voted Daniel Bryan Danielson was weird.

Then again they all also said that they weigh in-ring pretty weakly compared to others despite the criteria which is spelled out.

User avatar
Joe Lanza
Site Admin
Posts: 2732
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:00 pm

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:46 am

Rob McCarron wrote:So does anyone out there think Samoa Joe, for example, is a better candidate that Randy Orton?
Joe is a better worker and blows Orton away in historical significance. I guess Orton drew more money, but I really struggle with the idea of giving the Orton's, Edge's, Show's, Kane's much credit for drawing money when it's the WWE brand, Cena, Batista, Trips, and a few others who really drew the money whenever those guys were on top imo.

Historical significance. Joe will go down in history as one of the two or three key figures in the indie boom and in the history of indie wrestling, period. He's been involved in all time great legendary matches, and arguably the best match in the history of two different companies. Orton... I don't know, wrestled Cena a lot?

I'd probably vote for Joe before i'd vote for Orton if you put a gun to my head and made me pick one or the other.

User avatar
Rob McCarron
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:21 am
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Contact:

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Rob McCarron » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:35 am

So do you find it odd that Dave didn't even put Joe on the ballot?
Shake Them Ropes
iTunes | Stitcher | Twitter |YouTube

User avatar
Joe Lanza
Site Admin
Posts: 2732
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:00 pm

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:18 am

Rob McCarron wrote:So do you find it odd that Dave didn't even put Joe on the ballot?
I don't know if i'd say "odd", because I figured it was just dave being dave and forgetting to type his name in or whatever. Also, I don't think it matters because I think he'd get less than 10% anyway.

User avatar
Rob McCarron
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:21 am
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Contact:

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Rob McCarron » Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:39 am

That was dave's reasoning. He didn't include Joe because "no one would vote for him." Part of why I asked. Some say he's a better candidate than Orton, yet Dave knows that more people would still vote for Orton.
Shake Them Ropes
iTunes | Stitcher | Twitter |YouTube

User avatar
Joe Lanza
Site Admin
Posts: 2732
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:00 pm

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:57 am

Rob McCarron wrote:That was dave's reasoning. He didn't include Joe because "no one would vote for him." Part of why I asked. Some say he's a better candidate than Orton, yet Dave knows that more people would still vote for Orton.
Oh, I have no doubt more people would vote for Orton. Without question. And to be clear, even though I think Joe is a better candidate, I completely understand why most people would favor Orton.

User avatar
BoxingRobes
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:02 pm

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by BoxingRobes » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:35 pm

Samoa Joe is the workrate candidate equivalent of Junkyard Dog. Had a run of a few years as one of the best workers in the world...then...not much else to boost up the resume.

User avatar
kjharris
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:16 pm

Re: Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame (2015)

Post by kjharris » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:45 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:Joe is a better worker and blows Orton away in historical significance. I guess Orton drew more money, but I really struggle with the idea of giving the Orton's, Edge's, Show's, Kane's much credit for drawing money when it's the WWE brand, Cena, Batista, Trips, and a few others who really drew the money whenever those guys were on top imo.
I think Edge deserves credit for being a heel who didn't undercut John Cena at the peak of his fan backlash by working for cheers. Not sure I'd ever vote for him though. Orton's case is still being made (although I'm not sure he'll do much more than add years as a WWE upper-midcarder to the clock).

However, I do think you also underestimate the value of strong heels like Edge/Orton for Cena and other top babyface to work with. It's not like Cena drew the same with R-Truth on pay-per-view as he did with them. Both had brief patches where they looked like they could become breakout stars until WWE booking got in their way (Edge when his first World title run was aborted after three weeks, Orton when they rushed his first face turn and later when Triple H beat him at WrestleMania 25). If you look at both's PPV track record you'd find some drawing positives (Orton's Hell In The Cell match with Taker, Edge's TLC match in Toronto with John Cena, Orton's match with Jeff Hardy at Royal Rumble '09 all drew very good numbers for the standards of the time), which you would struggle to find for Big Show and Kane.

Post Reply