2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

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Garuda
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Garuda » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:20 am

I don't know if anyone has the knowledge or interest to answer in depth here, but can someone fill me in on Fishman and his candidacy? I know the name and the mask but very little about him otherwise. Good candidate? And is there a specific reason he's coming on the ballot this year?

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thecubsfan
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by thecubsfan » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:22 pm

Fishman was a CMLL star of the late 70s, main evening back to back 'Anniversario' shows in 1977. He then jumped to El Toreo/UWA, where he was near constantly feuding for a Light Heavyweight championships with the likes of Perro Aguayo, Villano III and Sangre Chicana. He dabbled in AAA & CMLL into the 90s into thru 200s, but he was more of a name from the past than a big star by that point. Fishman didn't have many big mask/hair match wins once he left CMLL - the most notable one was beating Rey Misterio (original) for his mask in Tijuana - but his title feuds appeared to be draws. Fishman doesn't appear to be in the Aguayo/Dos Caras/Canek tier of no doubt HOF UWA stars, but he's part of the group just below with guys like Villano III & Gran Hamada who were nearly as big stars (and it becomes more about how many people from a certain stretch are getting in.)

Villano III had the more storied career. Fishman seems worthy of consideration, but when Villano III can't get in, it's hard to grasp Fishman's path. Those who follow historical lucha believe that if we had even a semi-complete record of those UWA shows and the attendances they drew, they'd blow away just about everyone else. They were running a giant bull ring and seemed to be putting in 10K crowds regularly. 10K crowd seems to be an arbitrary drawing metric, and my hunch is someone did some research and figured out Fishman main evented a large number of them - not me, but maybe that research is coming in some form. It's going to be hard for him to get enough votes to stay on otherwise.

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Garuda
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Garuda » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:08 pm

Thanks, cubsfan! Exactly what I was hoping for. Villano III has been close, and if he teeters in people may find it easier to justify him. It would be very cool, though, if some explosive attendance records came to light.

I'm not too smart about wrestling history, especially lucha, which is why I love this time of year. Thanks for the history lesson.

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soup23
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by soup23 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:28 pm

Does someone have the best spot to find NOAH attendance records. Want to give a hard look at those before deciding to vote for Akiyama or not.

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soup23
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by soup23 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:29 pm

Right now I have

Bryan
JYD
Akiyama
Taue
Fujiwara
Tamura

all as YES

Slaughter
Han
CM Punk

All of those could go either way.

I am going to ABSTAIN in every area except modern US and Japan.

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DezWalker
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by DezWalker » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:25 pm

Just sent mine in:

I've got:
I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES - YES
Cowboy Bob Ellis

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES - YES
Bryan Danielson/Daniel Bryan
Edge
Sgt. Slaughter
Sting

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES - YES
Jun Akiyama
Yuji Nagata
Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES - YES
Caristico/Mistico
Dr. Wagner Jr.

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES - NO

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/CARIBBEAN/AFRICA CANDIDATES - NO

NON-WRESTLERS
Bill Apter
Howard Finkel
Gene Okerluind

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DezWalker
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by DezWalker » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:27 pm

Goat wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:As I recall, Bret Hart was a controversial selection, but after 1997 nobody really had a problem with it anymore. Certainly nobody does today.

The one I still don't fully understand, is Dibiase. Workrate pick? Am I forgetting a big run as a top guy run somewhere? His 1988 WWF run was fine, but there were probably a half dozen others who had good runs with Hogan in that time period. Paul Orndorff immediately comes to mind as someone who had a better run with Hogan. Maybe the best.
DiBiase's run was with Savage though. So maybe that was considered more impressive or something.

I'm thinking for Bret it was a combination of workrate, how big a draw he was outside North America, and how whenever they were forced to go back to him business would improve.
100% agree with Joe on DiBiase. When stumbling over the initial Hall of Fame issue a few years back, that's the one name that really stuck out for me. I think a guy like Dick Murdoch would've also had a better case.

Unless you're just using the strict criteria of "fame"....in which case Warrior should be in.

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:36 pm

DezWalker wrote:Just sent mine in:

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES - YES
Bryan Danielson/Daniel Bryan
Edge
Sgt. Slaughter
Sting
Let's talk about St... just kidding :)

Edge is a funny one. To you, what was his case? I've always felt he's a hall of very good guy but I've seen quite a few cases over the years that has made me think long and hard about it.
DezWalker wrote: FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES - YES
Jun Akiyama
Yuji Nagata
Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan
Love Akiyama getting in, he'll be in when I eventually send mine in as well. Nagata I've discussed before and he's borderline for me, probably leaning NO but I have no issues with people voting him in.

TenKoji... man I really waver on them. Are you voting them in and combining their singles accomplishments WITH their tag accomplishments? To me that's the only way you can really do it, I'm not sure as a raw team they did enough. BUT if you count their singles accomplishments, especially Kojima, in with the tag, I can absolutely see it. Just curious on your case for them and how/why you voted in. Definitely guys that probably have stronger cases individually than as a team.
NON-WRESTLERS
Bill Apter
Howard Finkel
Gene Okerluind
My man. I can't fathom how Gene isn't already in and I'm a Finkel voter 4 life. Dude added so much to the product and deserves recognition.

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Rich Kraetsch
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:39 pm

DezWalker wrote:
Goat wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:As I recall, Bret Hart was a controversial selection, but after 1997 nobody really had a problem with it anymore. Certainly nobody does today.

The one I still don't fully understand, is Dibiase. Workrate pick? Am I forgetting a big run as a top guy run somewhere? His 1988 WWF run was fine, but there were probably a half dozen others who had good runs with Hogan in that time period. Paul Orndorff immediately comes to mind as someone who had a better run with Hogan. Maybe the best.
DiBiase's run was with Savage though. So maybe that was considered more impressive or something.

I'm thinking for Bret it was a combination of workrate, how big a draw he was outside North America, and how whenever they were forced to go back to him business would improve.
100% agree with Joe on DiBiase. When stumbling over the initial Hall of Fame issue a few years back, that's the one name that really stuck out for me. I think a guy like Dick Murdoch would've also had a better case.

Unless you're just using the strict criteria of "fame"....in which case Warrior should be in.
DiBiase is one of my favorites ever but yeah, there's not much of a case there when compared with his peers or other candidates. The workrate was always fine. Character work was next level and the draw record speaks for itself. Certainly as you've said Dez, if you can stomach a vote for DiBiase than Warrior must be a moonwalk in? Personally, I wouldn't vote either but can't see one going in easily and the other struggling as much as he has.

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GOTNW
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by GOTNW » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:45 pm

soup23 wrote:Does someone have the best spot to find NOAH attendance records. Want to give a hard look at those before deciding to vote for Akiyama or not.
There really isn't anything more to conclude from looking at those. I wouldn't say much of anything made a difference outside of Misawa's and Kobashi's individual star power. NOAH was a hot product and Akiyama was a big part of that-maybe even the biggest actually. The degree of difficulty there was to making the Kentaro Shigas and Makoto Hashis look on his level in Jumbo-esque ways, putting over every challenger they could think of for Kobashi and being a credible rival for Kobashi at the same time shouldn't be underestimated, especially since peak NOAH was built on Burning vs Sternness and the 2004 Dome show that was built singularly on Kobashi-Akiyama drew pretty much the same number the insanely loaded 2005 did. Like anything else it was very much about time and place-you can blame Akiyama for the Sugiura 2010 GHC title match not drawing that well but just a year later he has a really strong drawing TC reign. All Japan is trending upwards under his leadership. Sure he's had some sketchy numbers, but it would be silly to judge him on those just as it would to judge Kobashi for his Sano GHC Title defence being a box office failure or his 2011 return in Osaka not doing great numbers. Taue having a heatless retirement match that couldn't even be the main event of the show does say something more about his career though.

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Goat
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Goat » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:45 pm

I'd have to take issue with the characterization that Kobashi and Akiyama was the sole draw on the first NOAH Tokyo Dome show when you had the first and only match that had Mitsuharu Misawa and Keiji Muto on opposite sides.

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KrisZ
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by KrisZ » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:05 am

Just sent mine in.....tough to make the last cut but I went with Shibuya over some others.....

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
Kinji Shibuya
Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES
Junkyard Dog

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES
Yoshiaki Fujiwara
Akira Taue

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES
Cien Caras
Blue Panther
Huracan Ramirez
El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro
Villano III

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE/AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/CARIBBEAN/AFRICA CANDIDATES
Abstain

NON-WRESTLERS
Dave Brown
Gary Hart
Jimmy Hart
Gene Okerlund
Don Owen

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DezWalker
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by DezWalker » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:09 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
DezWalker wrote:Just sent mine in:

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES - YES
Bryan Danielson/Daniel Bryan
Edge
Sgt. Slaughter
Sting
Let's talk about St... just kidding :)

Edge is a funny one. To you, what was his case? I've always felt he's a hall of very good guy but I've seen quite a few cases over the years that has made me think long and hard about it.
DezWalker wrote: FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES - YES
Jun Akiyama
Yuji Nagata
Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan
Love Akiyama getting in, he'll be in when I eventually send mine in as well. Nagata I've discussed before and he's borderline for me, probably leaning NO but I have no issues with people voting him in.

TenKoji... man I really waver on them. Are you voting them in and combining their singles accomplishments WITH their tag accomplishments? To me that's the only way you can really do it, I'm not sure as a raw team they did enough. BUT if you count their singles accomplishments, especially Kojima, in with the tag, I can absolutely see it. Just curious on your case for them and how/why you voted in. Definitely guys that probably have stronger cases individually than as a team.
NON-WRESTLERS
Bill Apter
Howard Finkel
Gene Okerluind
My man. I can't fathom how Gene isn't already in and I'm a Finkel voter 4 life. Dude added so much to the product and deserves recognition.
For Edge, it's a little bit of everything. I basically scored every candidate on a scale from 1-10 on each of the three important categories and Edge did well in each of them. Not blow-away but better than most on the ballot.

For Kojima/Tenzan...honestly, I'd prefer to just vote for the individuals but the fact that they've been an iconic tag team AND had individual singles success puts them over for me. I personally don't expect them to get it, I've just kinda got a soft spot for them.

I think the reason that Finkel and Okerlund aren't in is because of the confusion with the categories. I suspect that a lot of the people voting in the historical category aren't voting for anyone n the non-wrestler category, which essentially qualifies as a no vote for them.

I really think the non-wrestlers should just be a separate category on their own that you either vote for or you don't for. Could even be similar to the "writer's awards" in the other halls of fame.

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GOTNW
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by GOTNW » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:44 pm

Goat wrote:I'd have to take issue with the characterization that Kobashi and Akiyama was the sole draw on the first NOAH Tokyo Dome show when you had the first and only match that had Mitsuharu Misawa and Keiji Muto on opposite sides.
It's quite peculiar how forgettable that one is. 2004 Dome still doesn't come close to the 2005.

To add to the point I've been pushing about the issues of the HOF I don't think Dave's ever explicitly stated fame and starpower *on their own* have any merit and it's really about how good of a draw a wrestler is. Then you look at Kensuke Sasaki getting in and what really seperates him from his peers like Akiyama and Takayama is that he's a celebrity. That's it. He failed several times when he was pushed-initially in the 90s when he was essentially a Choshu cosplayer but also when Misawa put the GHC title on him out of desperation he drew baaaaaaaaaaaaad numbers. In terms of what is represented as WON HOF criteria I'd say it's pretty clear Akiyama is a better or at worse equally good candidate as Sasaki. But it's really perception that differs and makes Sasaki a no brainer HOFer while Akiyama has been fighting either to stay on the ballot or get in a long time. And you can say-well, sure, Akiyama may match or exceed Sasaki in terms of match quality, longevity, drawing ability and influence, but he just doesn't have the case for star power Sasaki does. Which is fine, but then make the star presence argument consistent and valid. Big Daddy is a no brainer HOFer, Sakaguchi and Kimura should get in. Hell-Bob Sapp and Naoya Ogawa were more famous than Misawa and Kobashi-get them on the ballot. But that criteria only seems to be applied selectively.

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Joe Lanza » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:35 pm

GOTNW wrote:
Goat wrote:I'd have to take issue with the characterization that Kobashi and Akiyama was the sole draw on the first NOAH Tokyo Dome show when you had the first and only match that had Mitsuharu Misawa and Keiji Muto on opposite sides.
It's quite peculiar how forgettable that one is. 2004 Dome still doesn't come close to the 2005.

To add to the point I've been pushing about the issues of the HOF I don't think Dave's ever explicitly stated fame and starpower *on their own* have any merit and it's really about how good of a draw a wrestler is. Then you look at Kensuke Sasaki getting in and what really seperates him from his peers like Akiyama and Takayama is that he's a celebrity. That's it. He failed several times when he was pushed-initially in the 90s when he was essentially a Choshu cosplayer but also when Misawa put the GHC title on him out of desperation he drew baaaaaaaaaaaaad numbers. In terms of what is represented as WON HOF criteria I'd say it's pretty clear Akiyama is a better or at worse equally good candidate as Sasaki. But it's really perception that differs and makes Sasaki a no brainer HOFer while Akiyama has been fighting either to stay on the ballot or get in a long time. And you can say-well, sure, Akiyama may match or exceed Sasaki in terms of match quality, longevity, drawing ability and influence, but he just doesn't have the case for star power Sasaki does. Which is fine, but then make the star presence argument consistent and valid. Big Daddy is a no brainer HOFer, Sakaguchi and Kimura should get in. Hell-Bob Sapp and Naoya Ogawa were more famous than Misawa and Kobashi-get them on the ballot. But that criteria only seems to be applied selectively.
You can apply the fame factor to Sgt Slaughter on the N.A. ballot, as well.

I would think fame in ones culture fits into the "historical significance in a positive manner" part of the criteria. There a positives and negatives in dave not fully fleshing out the components of the three criteria (the most glaring example being leaving it up to the voters to work out how to count Brock's MMA career). Voters clearly weight "fame" differently, at least the ones I've talked to. Personally, I find it hard to ignore as a positive, but I don't consciously see it as a negative if a candidate was never famous outside of wrestling. With that said, if breaking through IS a positive, wouldn't that make not breaking through inherently a negative?

fwiw, I voted for Kensuke and I vote for Akiyama every year. I see Akiyama as the stronger candidate.

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