2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

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Rich Kraetsch
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:04 pm

Empiresk wrote:Just seen a the fella who runs Inside The Gate, a pretty infrequent Dragon Gate podcast, about CIMA's status as and Hall of Famer. His point was that CIMA and his efforts to bring young, Western guys to the Dragon Gate dojo and has created the modern Crusierweight style.

Think of the guys who he has handpicked and trained over the years. Ricochet, Matt Sydal, Sami Zayn, Adrian Neville, The Young Bucks, Apollo Crews, Jack Evans, Rich Swann, Mark Haskins, Johnny Gargano. That could easily fill up a PWG card and there are a few more guys with big names who he brought over and never clicked.

Considering his role in being the leader in the formation of Dragon Gate and it's Ace for a decade, could his influence in training elite Western talent be seen similar to the was Ultimo Dragon the lynch pin of the Toryumon system? He has quite the legacy on the business in retrospect. I am very interested to see how other people view this. Is Dragon Gate a big enough promotion? Did he actually draw significantly in comparison to other promotions? Did he make a big enough impact in the US with PWG, ROH and DGUSA? Does a 5* match matter?
Michael (who posts here every so often) reached out to me and is going to be fleshing out his CIMA thoughts on an article for the website so be on the lookout!

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Empiresk » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:08 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
Empiresk wrote:Just seen a the fella who runs Inside The Gate, a pretty infrequent Dragon Gate podcast, about CIMA's status as and Hall of Famer. His point was that CIMA and his efforts to bring young, Western guys to the Dragon Gate dojo and has created the modern Crusierweight style.

Think of the guys who he has handpicked and trained over the years. Ricochet, Matt Sydal, Sami Zayn, Adrian Neville, The Young Bucks, Apollo Crews, Jack Evans, Rich Swann, Mark Haskins, Johnny Gargano. That could easily fill up a PWG card and there are a few more guys with big names who he brought over and never clicked.

Considering his role in being the leader in the formation of Dragon Gate and it's Ace for a decade, could his influence in training elite Western talent be seen similar to the was Ultimo Dragon the lynch pin of the Toryumon system? He has quite the legacy on the business in retrospect. I am very interested to see how other people view this. Is Dragon Gate a big enough promotion? Did he actually draw significantly in comparison to other promotions? Did he make a big enough impact in the US with PWG, ROH and DGUSA? Does a 5* match matter?
Michael (who posts here every so often) reached out to me and is going to be fleshing out his CIMA thoughts on an article for the website so be on the lookout!
Fantastic news!

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Buzz Sawyer
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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Buzz Sawyer » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:39 am

Joe Lanza wrote:As I recall, Bret Hart was a controversial selection, but after 1997 nobody really had a problem with it anymore. Certainly nobody does today.

The one I still don't fully understand, is Dibiase. Workrate pick? Am I forgetting a big run as a top guy run somewhere? His 1988 WWF run was fine, but there were probably a half dozen others who had good runs with Hogan in that time period. Paul Orndorff immediately comes to mind as someone who had a better run with Hogan. Maybe the best.
Teddy was the #1 Heel for Watts for about 18 months feuding with JYD mostly. He was the National heavyweight champ in Georgia and the top heel there in 1983-1984. I could see him getting a nod. He was also pretty successful in AJPW with Stan Hansen and as a babyface in mid-south in 1980/81 and then the UWF.
Who's Rob Viper ?

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Goat » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:47 am

Joe Lanza wrote:As I recall, Bret Hart was a controversial selection, but after 1997 nobody really had a problem with it anymore. Certainly nobody does today.

The one I still don't fully understand, is Dibiase. Workrate pick? Am I forgetting a big run as a top guy run somewhere? His 1988 WWF run was fine, but there were probably a half dozen others who had good runs with Hogan in that time period. Paul Orndorff immediately comes to mind as someone who had a better run with Hogan. Maybe the best.
DiBiase's run was with Savage though. So maybe that was considered more impressive or something.

I'm thinking for Bret it was a combination of workrate, how big a draw he was outside North America, and how whenever they were forced to go back to him business would improve.

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:41 am

Buzz Sawyer wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:As I recall, Bret Hart was a controversial selection, but after 1997 nobody really had a problem with it anymore. Certainly nobody does today.

The one I still don't fully understand, is Dibiase. Workrate pick? Am I forgetting a big run as a top guy run somewhere? His 1988 WWF run was fine, but there were probably a half dozen others who had good runs with Hogan in that time period. Paul Orndorff immediately comes to mind as someone who had a better run with Hogan. Maybe the best.
Teddy was the #1 Heel for Watts for about 18 months feuding with JYD mostly. He was the National heavyweight champ in Georgia and the top heel there in 1983-1984. I could see him getting a nod. He was also pretty successful in AJPW with Stan Hansen and as a babyface in mid-south in 1980/81 and then the UWF.
Right, not denying he was a star, but what I'm questioning was whether he was a HOF level star due to either one monster run somewhere, or collectively with a bunch of very strong runs. I'm not closed minded on it, I've just always been curious as to why he was seen as an automatic, no vote required lock.

I'm not nearly as high on his work as others are, but I'll just chalk that up to personal bias and being in the minority, like I am with Lawler.

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:43 am

Goat wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:As I recall, Bret Hart was a controversial selection, but after 1997 nobody really had a problem with it anymore. Certainly nobody does today.

The one I still don't fully understand, is Dibiase. Workrate pick? Am I forgetting a big run as a top guy run somewhere? His 1988 WWF run was fine, but there were probably a half dozen others who had good runs with Hogan in that time period. Paul Orndorff immediately comes to mind as someone who had a better run with Hogan. Maybe the best.
DiBiase's run was with Savage though. So maybe that was considered more impressive or something.

I'm thinking for Bret it was a combination of workrate, how big a draw he was outside North America, and how whenever they were forced to go back to him business would improve.
On Dibiase, that's fair, his top run did run from Hogan through Savage. He was a key figure during that period without question, as he was for Watts too, I'm just not sure those were HOF runs.

As for Bret, those are really good points.

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Buzz Sawyer » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:51 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Buzz Sawyer wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:As I recall, Bret Hart was a controversial selection, but after 1997 nobody really had a problem with it anymore. Certainly nobody does today.

The one I still don't fully understand, is Dibiase. Workrate pick? Am I forgetting a big run as a top guy run somewhere? His 1988 WWF run was fine, but there were probably a half dozen others who had good runs with Hogan in that time period. Paul Orndorff immediately comes to mind as someone who had a better run with Hogan. Maybe the best.
Teddy was the #1 Heel for Watts for about 18 months feuding with JYD mostly. He was the National heavyweight champ in Georgia and the top heel there in 1983-1984. I could see him getting a nod. He was also pretty successful in AJPW with Stan Hansen and as a babyface in mid-south in 1980/81 and then the UWF.
Right, not denying he was a star, but what I'm questioning was whether he was a HOF level star due to either one monster run somewhere, or collectively with a bunch of very strong runs. I'm not closed minded on it, I've just always been curious as to why he was seen as an automatic, no vote required lock.

I'm not nearly as high on his work as others are, but I'll just chalk that up to personal bias and being in the minority, like I am with Lawler.
I'm not a fan of Lawler either. He was never over anywhere else besides Mempho. In Mempho, he could book himself as champ 85 times, so that really shouldn't count. He was a mid-carder in Florida, AWA (before his title run) and in St. Louis. He tried Japan once and was booed out of the country (with Jimmy Valiant).
Who's Rob Viper ?

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:56 pm

Buzz Sawyer wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:
Buzz Sawyer wrote:
Teddy was the #1 Heel for Watts for about 18 months feuding with JYD mostly. He was the National heavyweight champ in Georgia and the top heel there in 1983-1984. I could see him getting a nod. He was also pretty successful in AJPW with Stan Hansen and as a babyface in mid-south in 1980/81 and then the UWF.
Right, not denying he was a star, but what I'm questioning was whether he was a HOF level star due to either one monster run somewhere, or collectively with a bunch of very strong runs. I'm not closed minded on it, I've just always been curious as to why he was seen as an automatic, no vote required lock.

I'm not nearly as high on his work as others are, but I'll just chalk that up to personal bias and being in the minority, like I am with Lawler.
I'm not a fan of Lawler either. He was never over anywhere else besides Mempho. In Mempho, he could book himself as champ 85 times, so that really shouldn't count. He was a mid-carder in Florida, AWA (before his title run) and in St. Louis. He tried Japan once and was booed out of the country (with Jimmy Valiant).
Agree for the most part, but Lawler was such an enormous star in that territory that he's a mortal lock for any credible HOF.

I'm not seeing that with Dibiase.

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Buzz Sawyer » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:02 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Buzz Sawyer wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:
Right, not denying he was a star, but what I'm questioning was whether he was a HOF level star due to either one monster run somewhere, or collectively with a bunch of very strong runs. I'm not closed minded on it, I've just always been curious as to why he was seen as an automatic, no vote required lock.

I'm not nearly as high on his work as others are, but I'll just chalk that up to personal bias and being in the minority, like I am with Lawler.
I'm not a fan of Lawler either. He was never over anywhere else besides Mempho. In Mempho, he could book himself as champ 85 times, so that really shouldn't count. He was a mid-carder in Florida, AWA (before his title run) and in St. Louis. He tried Japan once and was booed out of the country (with Jimmy Valiant).
Agree for the most part, but Lawler was such an enormous star in that territory that he's a mortal lock for any credible HOF.

I'm not seeing that with Dibiase.
The difference with Lawler & Dibiase is that Lawler had a stake in the office and was the booker for 6 months out of the year. Of course he's going to be booked strong, he's part owner.
Who's Rob Viper ?

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:45 pm

Wasn't DiBiase in due to working ability?

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:52 pm

Sgt. Slaughter is a candidate I wish I could do more research on, because I think he's probably stronger than the totals suggest just due to drawing pre-1985 in his WWF/Mid Atlantic runs.

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Joe Lanza » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:38 pm

Jeff Hawkins wrote:Sgt. Slaughter is a candidate I wish I could do more research on, because I think he's probably stronger than the totals suggest just due to drawing pre-1985 in his WWF/Mid Atlantic runs.
Slaughter is an underrated worker, too. He bumped around like crazy and was very athletic for his size. His decline as an athlete and worker was RIGHT as the national wrestling boom came, so a lot of people only saw his mediocre/shitty stuff from 85-onward.

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by mlev76 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:52 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Jeff Hawkins wrote:Sgt. Slaughter is a candidate I wish I could do more research on, because I think he's probably stronger than the totals suggest just due to drawing pre-1985 in his WWF/Mid Atlantic runs.
Slaughter is an underrated worker, too. He bumped around like crazy and was very athletic for his size. His decline as an athlete and worker was RIGHT as the national wrestling boom came, so a lot of people only saw his mediocre/shitty stuff from 85-onward.
The AWA era for Slaughter was basically a black hole, but it did also coincide with him becoming a face of GI Joe and gaining even more fame through that. I always am a bit perplexed that the actual impact on general pop culture doesn't get more credit in a discussion of candidates, most notably Slaughter and Jesse Ventura.

He did main event a Wrestlemania, albeit one that had to moved due to poor ticket sales. I feel like his matches with Hogan were better than most give credit to mainly because of the disgusting angle attached to it. I'm looking forward to rewatching them as I make my way through WWF PPVs.

1980-1985 Slaughter is a no brainer HOFer in my opinion. Couple that with those things I mentioned above, I think he deserves to be in.

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Buzz Sawyer » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:03 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Jeff Hawkins wrote:Sgt. Slaughter is a candidate I wish I could do more research on, because I think he's probably stronger than the totals suggest just due to drawing pre-1985 in his WWF/Mid Atlantic runs.
Slaughter is an underrated worker, too. He bumped around like crazy and was very athletic for his size. His decline as an athlete and worker was RIGHT as the national wrestling boom came, so a lot of people only saw his mediocre/shitty stuff from 85-onward.
Slaughter was a great worker until he got fat and lazy. From 1980-1985, he was a top 10 worker in the World. Before that, he was Super Destroyer Mark II and a few other gimmicks. The AWA made a belt just for him (Americas Title) and he really didn't live up to the hype. I don't see Slaughter as a HOF, unless you count the he was a sorta mainstream celebrity during the height of his popularity.
Who's Rob Viper ?

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Re: 2016 WON HOF Ballot & Discussion

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:43 pm

mlev76 wrote:He did main event a Wrestlemania, albeit one that had to moved due to poor ticket sales. I feel like his matches with Hogan were better than most give credit to mainly because of the disgusting angle attached to it. I'm looking forward to rewatching them as I make my way through WWF PPVs.
Do yourself a favor and don't rewatch them. Slaughter was bad/lazy by that point. It's startling to see how little he had left. His Rumble match versus Warrior is one of my least favorite matches ever and the Hogan match is kept short but still finds a way to drag. I agree with your larger points about Slaughter but man, you're going to be very disappointed if you rewatch this era Slaughter expecting good things.

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