NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 (Card & Pre-Show Discussion)

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Joe Lanza
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:42 pm

I'm in favor of long reigns overall. I'd have no problem with this being the "epic" Okada run.

This is something Rich brings up all of the time, but not every title challenge has to be an epic, deeply protected showdown of superstars. The big shows absolutely, but you can always do credible veterans like Nagata on your run of the mill monthly shows or even on a (gasp) Korakuen now & then. Somebody already mentioned the relatively long list of mid card types that Tanahashi filled his long reigns with, and Okada even defended against challenger-of-the-month types like Makabe & Kojima on one of his early runs. Often these are fun matches that feel fresh.

You can't make everybody happy. Nakamura dominates his title, and some people think it's stale. The junior titles bounce around and people aren't happy either. Personally I like long runs with dominant champions with the most important singles titles. The only title booking that burned me me up this year was NEVER with Ishii somehow earning a shot after all of the losses. I understand it's pro wrestling, and I don't care what a company like WWE does in this regard because I stopped suspending my disbelief years ago in that case, but when it comes to NJPW I like to at least pretend the pretense of sport in part of all of this and I like title contenders to at least have SOME kind of case for a challenge.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by GuestTimekeeper » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:56 pm

My first post here, figured it might as well be about WK 10.

Battle Royal - 4/10. Either Kojima wins to give Okada a one-time challenger, or EVIL wins to fight for the NEVER title against Shibata.

1) IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship Bobby Fish & Kyle O’Reilly (c) vs. Trent Baretta & Rocky Romero vs. Matt Jackson & Nick Jackson vs. Matt Sydal & Ricochet - 5/10. Should be a fun spot fest, but unlikely to be anything memorable. ReDragon wins to retain some stability with the titles, and hopefully we get some decent 2 on 2 matches going forward.

2) Toru Yano, “X” & “X” vs. Tama Tonga, Yujiro Takahashi & Bad Luck Fale - 5/10. I like Yano, and I'm sure this will be a fun, but meaningless match. The biggest intrigue is who he brings with him. Probably a couple ROH guys. Yano wins.

3) Michael Elgin vs. Jay Lethal (If Jay Lethal is ROH World Champion on 1/4, this carries out as a title match) - 7/10. I predict Elgin to win, but will it be for the title? So much depends on AJ's health. The Japanese fans have responded very well for Elgin, and I hope that carries over to the Dome.

4) IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championship Kenny Omega (c) vs. KUSHIDA - 3/10. Seen this match before. This would have much more interest from me if KUSHIDA hadn't won earlier this year. Omega does nothing for me. Hopefully he can move on other things besides the Jr. division so I can see what all the fuss is about. KUSHIDA wins.

5) IWGP Tag Team Championship Doc Gallows & Karl Anderson (c) vs. Tomoaki Honma & Togi Makabe - 7/10. This would be an 8 or 9 if Honma didn't have these domestic abuse allegations about him. He's had such a great underdog story the last couple years, that I really want him to win his big match. But, even if unfounded, these accusations cast shade over what should be a great moment. GBH wins unless more bad news comes out.

6) Hirooki Goto vs. Tetsuya Naito - 8/10. Looking forward to this a lot. Naito is one of my faves right now, and I think he's going to have a huge 2016. We've already gotten Naito/Shibata this year, and Goto has always been the featured player in that tag team, so it makes perfect sense for this match to happen instead of a repeat with Shibata. Naito wins.

7) NEVER Openweight Championship Tomohiro Ishii (c) vs. Katsuyori Shibata - 9/10. This will probably just be these guys no-selling stiff shots and seeing who has the bigger dick. Can't wait. I understand people who don't like the style or think it gets repetitive, but that is alleviated by this being the only match like it on the card. As long as we don't get meaningless forearms battles in the earlier matches, this should be awesome. Shibata wins the NEVER title, as Ishii's only role is to get others over.

8) IWGP Intercontinental Championship Shinsuke Nakamura (c) vs. AJ Styles - 9/10. My excitement here is only tempered by AJ's injury. There's a lot of intrigue here for the upcoming months with these two. AJ as IC champ, Nakamura as possible ROH champ, one of them carrying both belts, we could get a lot of neat stuff. I think AJ, health permitting, will be IC champion, but not tonight. Nakamura wins.

9) IWGP Heavyweight Championship Kazuchika Okada (c) vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi - 8/10. I don't understand people complaining about this match happening again. I have no problem seeing a repeat of a great match up. It isn't like they've fought three times in the span or a few months or anything. Should be great, and Okada obviously wins.

Really looking forward to the show, and hey, I have the 4th and 5th off work too, so this will be only the second show I watch live.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by DylanZero » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:10 pm

This is such a different situation than Nakamura and Tanahashi and for me as a fan it would lower my interest because Okada's formulaic on his own and I'm tired of seeing him win everything anyway, but this is Okada's most important title reign and the time he becomes the ace of the company. Tanahashi didn't lose a month in on his big win, neither did Muto and they're not building up Okada to be Chono I'm pretty sure.

I also think putting it on Naito would be a terrible mistake. One of my predictions is people will turn on this Naito thing this year hard and it will get run into the ground. I already know people who watched World Tag League and already feel this way and I think that number will grow and fast if he wins the title and every match turns into a circus.
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by GOTNW » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:54 pm

DylanZero wrote:Tanahashi didn't lose a month in on his big win, neither did Muto.
These are pretty bad examples that showcase that something like that doesn't really matter. After he beat Muto Tanahashi lost the belt four months later to Nakanishi who got the belt as a thank you prop. A similar moment in Mutoh's career would be him winning the G1, and he also lost the title four months later. Okada has won the IWGP belt three times and has the G1 and New Japan Cup under his belt too. He's made. His second title reign is the one that completely solidified him. He doesn't need more shine. He even already surpassed Tanahashi once at KOPW 2013. Whether he gets a filler defence or two betwen beating Tanahashi and dropping the title or not won't really have much effect on his career.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Chismo » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:09 pm

Okada doesn't need another big reign. All he needs is going over Tanashi in the Dome and that's it. I hope he loses at Invasion Attack.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:24 pm

Chismo wrote:Okada doesn't need another big reign. All he needs is going over Tanashi in the Dome and that's it. I hope he loses at Invasion Attack.
This would set him up storyline wise as a legit G1 contender, which i'm all for, especially coming off the brofight loss vs Nak this year. Lots of ways you can then go with that.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by DylanZero » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:35 pm

GOTNW wrote:
DylanZero wrote:Tanahashi didn't lose a month in on his big win, neither did Muto.
These are pretty bad examples that showcase that something like that doesn't really matter. After he beat Muto Tanahashi lost the belt four months later to Nakanishi who got the belt as a thank you prop. A similar moment in Mutoh's career would be him winning the G1, and he also lost the title four months later. Okada has won the IWGP belt three times and has the G1 and New Japan Cup under his belt too. He's made. His second title reign is the one that completely solidified him. He doesn't need more shine. He even already surpassed Tanahashi once at KOPW 2013. Whether he gets a filler defence or two betwen beating Tanahashi and dropping the title or not won't really have much effect on his career.
?

If he drops the title 4 months down the line it's fine, though I think the best way would be to have it until next Jan. 4th just because they've gone so far in on him already. Not right away though in February. That would be bad.
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:48 pm

DylanZero wrote:
GOTNW wrote:
DylanZero wrote:Tanahashi didn't lose a month in on his big win, neither did Muto.
These are pretty bad examples that showcase that something like that doesn't really matter. After he beat Muto Tanahashi lost the belt four months later to Nakanishi who got the belt as a thank you prop. A similar moment in Mutoh's career would be him winning the G1, and he also lost the title four months later. Okada has won the IWGP belt three times and has the G1 and New Japan Cup under his belt too. He's made. His second title reign is the one that completely solidified him. He doesn't need more shine. He even already surpassed Tanahashi once at KOPW 2013. Whether he gets a filler defence or two betwen beating Tanahashi and dropping the title or not won't really have much effect on his career.
?

If he drops the title 4 months down the line it's fine, though I think the best way would be to have it until next Jan. 4th just because they've gone so far in on him already. Not right away though in February. That would be bad.
Here's the thing, losing in February wouldn't hurt him, but jeez, even if this isn't going to be a mega run, can we let the Tanahashi win breath for more than ten minutes before we change course?

It's a societal thing, I get it, and i'm guilty of it sometimes too, but wrestling fans are very impatient in this era. I'm arguing for 6 year title runs (I would enjoy that sort of thing but I get why time has moved on from it), but what's the constant need to rush into the next thing?

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by GOTNW » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:08 pm

Gedo and Jado don't book patiently.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by DylanZero » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:18 pm

I mean that's in essence the point I'm making not that it will tank the company or ruin him, (Although I do think it will matter to a portion of native fans more than some on here think) but that it would be much better for all involved to not immediately move on to the next thing, let him have his run as the unquestioned ace. Even 4 months or something would be okay but preferably longer.

A 6 year title run I wouldn't be against in the right situation, not saying this one though, but if there comes around a Booker who can keep things fresh for years on end and constantly make new stars I think it would work well. I just don't think that guy's around anywhere in the world currently.
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 pm

GOTNW wrote:Gedo and Jado don't book patiently.
We should leave Jado out of this because he hasn't been around for a year, but I completely and vehemently diasgree with this. I mean, everything moves slow in New Japan. At least at the top of the card (Gedo just doesn't give a shit about long term stuff for juniors or prelim level stuff).

Look at what Jado is doing at NOAH. They haven't exactly rushed through the SZG invasion. And you could certainly argue for business reasons that maybe they should speed that fucker up at this point.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:34 pm

DylanZero wrote:I mean that's in essence the point I'm making not that it will tank the company or ruin him, (Although I do think it will matter to a portion of native fans more than some on here think) but that it would be much better for all involved to not immediately move on to the next thing, let him have his run as the unquestioned ace. Even 4 months or something would be okay but preferably longer.

A 6 year title run I wouldn't be against in the right situation, not saying this one though, but if there comes around a Booker who can keep things fresh for years on end and constantly make new stars I think it would work well. I just don't think that guy's around anywhere in the world currently.
Yeah, we're agreeing here. I don't like the argument of "OK he's done with Tanahashi, let's put the strap on Naito at New Beginning and get the ball rolling on that feud".

Slow down.

EDIT: My original post should have said I'm NOT arguing for 6-year title runs. Sort of changes the context, but I think you knew what I was saying.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by GOTNW » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
GOTNW wrote:Gedo and Jado don't book patiently.
We should leave Jado out of this because he hasn't been around for a year, but I completely and vehemently diasgree with this. I mean, everything moves slow in New Japan. At least at the top of the card (Gedo just doesn't give a shit about long term stuff for juniors or prelim level stuff).

Look at what Jado is doing at NOAH. They haven't exactly rushed through the SZG invasion. And you could certainly argue for business reasons that maybe they should speed that fucker up at this point.
Okada comes back, instantly wins the IWGP title. AJ comes in, instantly wins the IWGP title. KES come in, instantly win the tag belts. Gallows comes in, instantly wins the tag team titles. Omega comes in, instantly wins the junior belt etc. Ishii got pushed as soon as his match vs. Masato Tanaka got votes in the Tokyo Sports MOTY poll.

MiSu's reign was always going to be him going through everyone before dropping the belt.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by jesse » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:30 pm

Okada eventually is going to have to put someone over and at this point it looks like that guy is going to be Naito and I don't think there's too much of an argument in that.

I don't think you have have a year long reign with Okada because I don't think New Japan's business would be able to handle it. You can crown him your ace all you want but I don't think his drawing power is what it was a year or two ago. Some of this is the current state of wrestling in Japan but some of it is that despite not getting that WK win over Tanahashi the Rainmaker has still been pushed to a level that his draw is starting to fade a little. Also in 4 months Okada might not have defended his title once. That's New Japan in 2015-2016. So if he were to drop it after WK or in April after not having a singles match at all does it really matter?
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:55 pm

jesse wrote:Okada eventually is going to have to put someone over and at this point it looks like that guy is going to be Naito and I don't think there's too much of an argument in that.

I don't think you have have a year long reign with Okada because I don't think New Japan's business would be able to handle it. You can crown him your ace all you want but I don't think his drawing power is what it was a year or two ago. Some of this is the current state of wrestling in Japan but some of it is that despite not getting that WK win over Tanahashi the Rainmaker has still been pushed to a level that his draw is starting to fade a little. Also in 4 months Okada might not have defended his title once. That's New Japan in 2015-2016. So if he were to drop it after WK or in April after not having a singles match at all does it really matter?
Based on what? Or do you mean moving forward? Let's look at his major shows this year.

KOPW Sumo Hall vs AJ: 8300
Dominion Jo-Hall vs AJ: 11,400
WK9 Dome vs Tana: 36,000

G1 Sumo Hall vs Nak: 7557 (the night before with Tanahashi & Styles did 5658)

Where is the evidence Okada is losing steam as a draw?

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