NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 (Card & Pre-Show Discussion)

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Tigerkinney
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Tigerkinney » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:51 am

Re Honma:

I guess we should all really abide by the motion that he's 'innocent until proven guilty' and shouldn't let the accusations that are hanging over him, affect our judgement in regards to us continuing to watch him wrestle in NJPW. As Dylan pointed out, the more that unfolds about this case, the more it doesn't seem so Black and White that Honma is knocking her about and that the very least there is a high chance that either Ichiki is 'crazy' or it's just one of those bad relationships, where the abusive behaviour goes both ways.

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Robareid
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Robareid » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:44 am

You may not mean it this way, but telling everybody we should distrust an abuse victim is in really poor taste and how we should behave in regards to it. At the very least you shouldn't be telling people how to feel on this very sensitive situation. Believe victims.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by DylanZero » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:10 am

I'm only stating the facts: (I apologize if these aren't in "good tastes" of what you want to believe)
She has a history of abusing others. (Allegedly high school children on top of it)
She's considered untrustworthy by nearly everyone willing to speak about her.
Nobody close or related to her has corroborated what she's said.
There's no evidence of anything she's said to be true.
Honma filed a lawsuit before she did.
Multiple people have reported those things publicly, I'm just backing that up nor am I telling you how to feel.

If you're willing overlook all of that to try to convict Honma, then nobody can stop you from feeling that way and of course you could always be right, as mentioned by myself nobody can know for sure. However, knowing these things I think it's highly unfair labeling Honma as an abuser or her as a victim unless something changes where something reliable comes up since multiple people closer to that situation than you are saying otherwise and she's offered nothing to prove them wrong.

And if you do believe he's guilty for whatever reason, then I do question you for not showing disgust at the company for pushing him and having him celebrate with women on a public wrestling show directly afterwards.

And obviously if there was any reason to actually believe this highly questionable woman I would immediately be on that same side as you and especially if there was anything tangible or hell, even if someone close to them would believe her I'd at least have second thoughts. But of course, that's just me wanting to know the truth instead of just dragging a man's name through the mud because it's in "good tastes".
Last edited by DylanZero on Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kevin Wilson
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Kevin Wilson » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:15 am

The issue is that we don't know who the victim is. Both claim to be abuse victims. And as people with no real knowledge in what happened, I am certainly not going to get on either "bandwagon" myself when all we have are two sides with not a lot of hard facts. My personal guess is that it was a toxic and unhealthy relationship, but beyond that there is no way for us to know.

Anyway, WK10 looks like fun, huh?

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DylanZero
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by DylanZero » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:24 am

Kevin Wilson wrote:The issue is that we don't know who the victim is. Both claim to be abuse victims. And as people with no real knowledge in what happened, I am certainly not going to get on either "bandwagon" myself when all we have are two sides with not a lot of hard facts. My personal guess is that it was a toxic and unhealthy relationship, but beyond that there is no way for us to know.

Anyway, WK10 looks like fun, huh?
Actually we have a few hard facts, I just posted them. But most importantly, nobody close to them believes her. (Let me give you the full version: Nobody we know believes her and if they do they've yet to back her publicly) That's the only reason I say we should wait and have the decency to at least not bury Honma. I've talked to people, Meltzer's talked to people, think Cubed Circle ran a story about it but I can't get on there to see the specifics right now, but there's no way around it. Her story is doubted heavily and it's not because of no reason nor just because she's a woman like some people would probably cry about. It's because of the person she's been. (Or maybe she's highly misunderstood and innocent of everything, but that's very hard for me to believe personally at this point. As I've said, nobody can know for sure, just can only go by what we know.)

Edit: And obviously NJP believes him and pushes him continually.
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Robareid » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:34 am

The point I was trying to get across was that telling people they "should all really abide by the motion that he's 'innocent until proven guilty' and shouldn't let the accusations that are hanging over him, affect our judgement in regards to us continuing to watch him wrestle in NJPW" is a little insensitive and, to my mind at least, in bad taste to instruct other people on how to feel in regards to this incredibly personal situation.

I'm not trying to convict Honma, I know almost nothing of the what actually occurred. I wasn't there, obviously. All I know is that applying the "innocent until proven guilty" idea to domestic violence is a toxic and frankly incredibly dangerous thing to do. My firm stance on this issue is to initially believe those who are crying for help and not start from the assumption that they're lying. Oh and for the record this works both ways, although the response of "oh well s/he beat me too" is always a lot weaker.

Now I know you have looked into the facts and have reached a conclusion in your mind on the topic and that's fine, but to instruct others that they "shouldn't let the accusations that are hanging over him, affect our judgement in regards to us continuing to watch him wrestle in NJPW" seems overly bold to me.

Oh, and if I come off overly confrontational on this subject I apologize. It's a subject that hits very close to home for me and I told myself I wouldn't post on it (and after over-tweeting about it have hard stopped myself) so have been avoiding the New Japan thread since the news dropped but didn't expect to see it pop up in here (not a criticism, it was a logical flow of the thread) and ignored my own rule of staying out of the conversation.


Anyways. Wrestle Kingdom card from a match point of view looks a lot of fun, although from a storyline perspective I feel it's very weak. Very few of the matches have any story behind them, which makes it all the more maddening that one of the few feuds that have been built up in Naito-Shibata isn't a thing.

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Alan4L
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Alan4L » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:40 am

the card is pretty sweet but WTF WHERE ARE THE WHACKY MATCH NAMES????

I WANT TO ROCK MY HEART OF FXXXING OUTLAWS AND HAVE A NEW YEAR'S WALTZ!!!!!

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Robareid » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:43 am

It's not even the Rambo this year. So disappointing.

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Drew Wardlaw
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by Drew Wardlaw » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:51 am

I was really hoping for KING OF DESTROYER II match :/

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by DylanZero » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:09 am

Robareid wrote:The point I was trying to get across was that telling people they "should all really abide by the motion that he's 'innocent until proven guilty' and shouldn't let the accusations that are hanging over him, affect our judgement in regards to us continuing to watch him wrestle in NJPW" is a little insensitive and, to my mind at least, in bad taste to instruct other people on how to feel in regards to this incredibly personal situation.

I'm not trying to convict Honma, I know almost nothing of the what actually occurred. I wasn't there, obviously. All I know is that applying the "innocent until proven guilty" idea to domestic violence is a toxic and frankly incredibly dangerous thing to do. My firm stance on this issue is to initially believe those who are crying for help and not start from the assumption that they're lying.

Now I know you have looked into the facts and have reached a conclusion in your mind on the topic and that's fine, but to tell others that they "shouldn't let the accusations that are hanging over him, affect our judgement in regards to us continuing to watch him wrestle in NJPW" seems overly bold to me.


Anyways. Wrestle Kingdom card from a match point of view looks a lot of fun, although from a storyline perspective I feel it's very weak. Very few of the matches have any story behind them, which makes it all the more maddening that one of the few feuds that have been built up in Naito-Shibata isn't a thing.
I never started off not believing her. My first thought admittedly was that Honma had suffered through repeated hits to the head and that sent him off which was scary to me in many ways and depressing that another story like this in wrestling came about. But then I saw who the woman and reached a similar conclusion that it was some sort of destructive relationship and we should wait for Honma's side to see if he has another side. After hearing it from Meltzer that this looked like it wasn't true and nobody believed her, and checked to see what I could find and everyone's telling me the same thing in addition to the extracurricular circumstances I can't help but feel sorry for Honma at the possibility that he'll get vilified for the rest of his life by many for something that at this point most who would know better (Not saying me and never was just me) have said is not true. Not every woman has hurt people in the past physically. Not every woman is as doubted as her, not every woman is Ichiki. And that's how I look at her, as Ichiki. I still would take a woman's side automatically at her word if they didn't have a similar past and silly to insinuate otherwise.

Like I said, still it's not I think it's unbelievable you would think that way, I just think it's not fair that the reality is no matter what evidence there is or gets presented, even if she herself retracted, will still consider him the scum of the earth which would be true if he did it and I would be the first one to say it. So yes, I would prefer people wait until something, anything, anyone else would be on her side before they go with that narrative in their minds in such a delicate and personal situation. But that's the extent of it. I can't make you or anyone else. I'm not saying you're a bad person for doing it, but to me it's also irresponsible to overlook everything as well and continue to lay that at his feet anyway no matter what and not at least take a second thought. Not even saying to not to believe her or that she's a liar, but that it's way up in the air at best. Sadly odds are there will never be any confession or definitive proof either way in this case but it's not like there's nothing to look at and reason to exercise caution. That's really all I can articulate at this point. Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from rather than this "It's irresponsible to tell people not to believe her, you have to believe them first".

*Already expressed my thoughts on WK as a card a few pages ago*
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by DylanWaco » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:30 am

My only concern with Honma story from the beginning was that the allegation be treated seriously. I don't believe Meltzer did in his initial comments on the matter, and after listening to it twice I actually think the "in context" argument is terrible as to me it came off FAR worse in context than out of context.

As for WK10 card...it's passable all things considered, but if you aren't all in on the Okada/Tanahashi series as being an all timer, I struggle to see how it could seriously be called a great card. In many respects it's very typical, which is perfectly fine, but the sterility and standstill nature of NJPW booking has largely killed my interest in the promotion at this point. I will watch WK10 live, and I expect it to be a good - possibly even very good - show. I do legitimately think Reigns v. Sheamus could be better than every match on the show, but that shouldn't surprise anyone who knows how highly I rate those two, and I also think it's possible WK10 could have at least two excellent matches if everything comes off perfectly.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by DylanZero » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:45 am

I was talking about his comments on the 12/7 show (I believe) not his original statement which to me that I do understand getting upset about the flippant way he handled it at first but I don't think I came across like that at all and never meant it that way, and treated it very seriously as it deserves to be.

I would be more up for Sheamus/Reigns more if I wasn't expecting a bunch of Authority shenanigans, want to see more on this Styles injury before I even consider TLC being more exciting but that's not high praise.
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sternness
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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by sternness » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:35 am

Alan4L wrote:the card is pretty sweet but WTF WHERE ARE THE WHACKY MATCH NAMES????

I WANT TO ROCK MY HEART OF FXXXING OUTLAWS AND HAVE A NEW YEAR'S WALTZ!!!!!
They got left in the dust along with interesting booking.

IMO, this card would be great for something like a return to the Budokan or even Osaka Jo Hall or Yokohama Arena. It just doesn't feel like a Tokyo Dome card at all.

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by EvanDeadlySins » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:47 am

sternness wrote:
Alan4L wrote:the card is pretty sweet but WTF WHERE ARE THE WHACKY MATCH NAMES????

I WANT TO ROCK MY HEART OF FXXXING OUTLAWS AND HAVE A NEW YEAR'S WALTZ!!!!!
They got left in the dust along with interesting booking.

IMO, this card would be great for something like a return to the Budokan or even Osaka Jo Hall or Yokohama Arena. It just doesn't feel like a Tokyo Dome card at all.
Expand on this statement regarding it not feeling like a Tokyo Dome card. Is it because there aren't twelve matches or something?

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Re: NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10 Card

Post by sternness » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:19 am

EvanDeadlySins wrote:
sternness wrote:
Alan4L wrote:the card is pretty sweet but WTF WHERE ARE THE WHACKY MATCH NAMES????

I WANT TO ROCK MY HEART OF FXXXING OUTLAWS AND HAVE A NEW YEAR'S WALTZ!!!!!
They got left in the dust along with interesting booking.

IMO, this card would be great for something like a return to the Budokan or even Osaka Jo Hall or Yokohama Arena. It just doesn't feel like a Tokyo Dome card at all.
Expand on this statement regarding it not feeling like a Tokyo Dome card. Is it because there aren't twelve matches or something?
It's not the match count, really...there's no real 'punch' to the card, I guess. There's no outside invasion, there's no Sakuraba match, there's only one clusterfuck tag on the undercard and it's the Yano tag. This is not a card that, if you showed me just the card and didn't tell me the date or venue, I would immediately go, "oh that's a Tokyo Dome card". You could easily put this exact card at Sumo Hall show, or Osaka Jo Hall or Yokohama Arena and it wouldn't seem like you were putting on a card too big for the venue, which isn't something you can claim about the last several Dome Shows. It even has the same number of matches and an identical card layout to Dominion.

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