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Joe Lanza
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:16 pm

Grammarian wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:
Grammarian wrote:It just hit me that on a show where David Finlay was on the preshow wrestling a Young Lion, Jay White closed the show with a major angle attacking and challenging Tanahashi. Remember back to those two working with each other constantly when they were starting out as Young Lions. Wow, were they ever in polar opposite positions on the last show.
People are being very hypercritical of White's gimmick.

I think John said something similar earlier in the thread, but the bottom line is if he has killer matches (and I think he will) and beats the right people he will get over, regardless of what anyone thinks of his leather jacket.

He was always getting rocket packed, I don't know why some people seem surprised, and he has the best opponent and the best show to break through on. Gedo's track record is close to flawless in getting new stars over, even if White disappoints here, I wouldn't write him off (see: Okada vs YOSHI-HASHI five years ago in the same building).
I don't have a problem with the character/look, nor with the megapush. I was just noting the stark differences in where Jay and Finlay are now. It didn't hit me until hours after the show.
Apologies, I kind of used your post to bleed into my points on the thread as a whole, I should have started it off with an "Agreed" before moving on to my points.

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Guilherme Jaeger
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Guilherme Jaeger » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:07 pm

Hey guys!

So, with our... recent events, I figured new eyes would give New Japan Pro Wrestling a try. And while the NJ fan community does a great job of catching up people on news, storylines, and company specifics, I feel it would be handy for a new NJPW fan to get a little primer, into who exactly each of these characters are, and how they get portrayed. The diversity and psychology of New Japan's wrestlers is one of the aspects that I appreciate the most about it's product, and also I feel it's an essential aspect to becoming invested in an entertainment product, wrestling or otherwise.

So I'm starting a series of ...dives into each NJ wrestler's character. Beginning with the Rainmaker, Kazuchika Okada. I intend to do at least the other 3 big guys (Naito, Tanahashi, Omega), but I could do more if people want it. If you read it for your enjoyement or show it to people who are willing to try this New Japan thing that we love out, thank you!

Here it is:

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by IIDXias » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:32 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:I think John said something similar earlier in the thread, but the bottom line is if he has killer matches (and I think he will) and beats the right people he will get over, regardless of what anyone thinks of his leather jacket.
i said the most important thing is that he's cute, then followed by match quality. the pujoshi can make you and they can break you my friend

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PKThree
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by PKThree » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:24 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
People are being very hypercritical of White's gimmick.

I think John said something similar earlier in the thread, but the bottom line is if he has killer matches (and I think he will) and beats the right people he will get over, regardless of what anyone thinks of his leather jacket.

He was always getting rocket packed, I don't know why some people seem surprised, and he has the best opponent and the best show to break through on. Gedo's track record is close to flawless in getting new stars over, even if White disappoints here, I wouldn't write him off (see: Okada vs YOSHI-HASHI five years ago in the same building).
You can have as many killer matches as you like. But if you look like a dweeb you end up a dweeb. And Jay White right now looks like the king of dweebs.

That look needs altering right now because that look went out of style with Columbine. Not everyone is going to pull an Evil and get larping gear over.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Garuda » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:45 pm

I think his hair looks great. His all-black leather deal is played out, though. He has two months to change it or, better yet, personalize it. With some minor tweaks he can make it his own; right now he just looks like he got into his older brother's closet.

Of course presentation matters, but I agree with Joe that the booking and the match quality and the storytelling is going to sell him the most. His gear could be better, but it won't have a large impact on his popularity. Ring gear alone isn't even a huge slice of the presentation pie.

Granted, I am SO tired of them going to the same 'ol 7th grader's well for what a badass is. Between the LiJ guys and Omega, most of the Bullet Club, and most of Suzuki-gun, do we need ANOTHER dangerous renegade cut from the same cloth? Even just the visuals alone, they need to get over black being the staple color of 80% of their wrestlers, especially when they're meant to be different from one another.

Jay White will be fine, but that bit of repetitive narrative style is the thing that really bugs me. Still very excited for his match, though, so maybe that doesn't matter either.

To say something nice, I thought his theme, graphic, and entrance lighting were all REALLY good. I'm proud of the guy.

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PKThree
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by PKThree » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:51 pm

Garuda wrote:I think his hair looks great. His all-black leather deal is played out, though. He has two months to change it or, better yet, personalize it. With some minor tweaks he can make it his own; right now he just looks like he got into his older brother's closet.

Of course presentation matters, but I agree with Joe that the booking and the match quality and the storytelling is going to sell him the most. His gear could be better, but it won't have a large impact on his popularity. Ring gear alone isn't even a huge slice of the presentation pie.

Granted, I am SO tired of them going to the same 'ol 7th grader's well for what a badass is. Between the LiJ guys and Omega, most of the Bullet Club, and most of Suzuki-gun, do we need ANOTHER dangerous renegade cut from the same cloth? Even just the visuals alone, they need to get over black being the staple color of 80% of their wrestlers, especially when they're meant to be different from one another.

Jay White will be fine, but that bit of repetitive narrative style is the thing that really bugs me. Still very excited for his match, though, so maybe that doesn't matter either.

To say something nice, I thought his theme, graphic, and entrance lighting were all REALLY good. I'm proud of the guy.
The overall presentation was fantastic. But the look is what is holding him back for me. Like you said he is far from the only stoic badass guy in all black leather on the roster. I get that they were going for a dark killer look, but that could have been done differently.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:38 pm

I would like to point out that these valid discussions about White's attire, gimmick, and presentation are things that most guys would have a chance to work out over a couple years as they were built up( look at Evil, Juice, and Sanada for example) and slowly given opportunities to prove themselves worthy of the main event spots. White somehow has to navigate all of this and deliver in a big spot at the Dome.

Which leads me to question of why White had pushed this hard this fast? They couldn't have done a rematch with Ibushi or had Jericho face Tanahashi( which would have been so much better as both guys are so heavily influenced by Shawn Michaels and could work a slower paced match). I feel like White could have really used a midcard test run with this gimmick.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Garuda » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:04 am

PKThree wrote: The overall presentation was fantastic. But the look is what is holding him back for me. Like you said he is far from the only stoic badass guy in all black leather on the roster. I get that they were going for a dark killer look, but that could have been done differently.

I mean I totally agree but I'm just not sold on it being a big deal until I see how it develops. Maybe it gets tweaked, maybe it ends up not mattering, maybe it ends up sinking him - I can't muster SO huge a response for one appearance.

For sure it affected the quality of his big moment (for me and you, at least). But we'll see how it feels going forward - too early for me to have a big stance on it.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Angry216 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:05 am

Keep in mind too that this was the first showing of the Switchblade persona. Like Roppongi 3K, this is still a new act so there's going to be rough patches for certain. Over time we'll definitely see Jay grow into the character, adding new nuances, etc. That's what you hope for. So this isn't the finished article. It will be interesting to see how he develops the persona and how he as a wrestler grows into it as well. WK is a HUGE test for him(obviously.)

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by suplexberry » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:17 am

This always seems to happen with us NJ hardcores, because it feels like every single new twist is always met with a hesitant reception and 8 times out of 10 it works out just fine once you let things play out (other times it's BONE SOLDIER). It's fair, because I get why people are worried or uncertain or even just flat-out dislike certain things at first impression, like EVIL's goofy gimmick. Then everybody discusses and frets what's gonna happen and in the end it's fine and good. Like it might not happen right now, but most likely it's going to be just fine.

With that said, I still marvel at Gedo's guts at doing this sort of thing. I would not have the ovaries to debut anybody at Wrestle Kingdom in this big a spot, I'd play it safe and build to an IC defence at like, say, Dominion or even Sakura Genesis. Not this guy, though. All in, straight away, no dilly-dallying with this push. It's bold.

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Guilherme Jaeger
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Guilherme Jaeger » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:27 am

suplexberry wrote:This always seems to happen with us NJ hardcores, because it feels like every single new twist is always met with a hesitant reception and 8 times out of 10 it works out just fine once you let things play out (other times it's BONE SOLDIER). It's fair, because I get why people are worried or uncertain or even just flat-out dislike certain things at first impression, like EVIL's goofy gimmick. Then everybody discusses and frets what's gonna happen and in the end it's fine and good. Like it might not happen right now, but most likely it's going to be just fine.

With that said, I still marvel at Gedo's guts at doing this sort of thing. I would not have the ovaries to debut anybody at Wrestle Kingdom in this big a spot, I'd play it safe and build to an IC defence at like, say, Dominion or even Sakura Genesis. Not this guy, though. All in, straight away, no dilly-dallying with this push. It's bold.
True, we still fret despite the recent track record suggesting otherwise. The whole boldness deal has been working since Okada, and hasn't truly stopped working since. Hiromu, EVIL, Roppongi 3K, you name it. Thing is... Gedo keeps getting bolder. This is the most sink or swim he has ever been with a guy. Jay White is certainly capable of delivering, and I was impressed with the overall production they gave him. And I think he even delivered his character work reasonably well. But I won't lie, he struck me as another generic dark edgelord, in a land full of better examples of the same general archetype. Which is fine, he has time to develop and flesh out... Except he kinda doesn't, because Wrestle Kingdom is almost here and he is in a semi main-event. He has to deliver. Not so the show doesn't flounder, the show will be fine if he does. But for himself.

This is a huge spotlight on a character that may very well be underdeveloped. Okada was only introduced at WK. Hiromu was trusted with a big position on the show, but his work in Mexico was very similar to the Ticking Time Bomb, and as such, he was more fine tuned. Again, I don't question Jay White's in-ring work, but that's not all I'm talking about. If he's in that position in the card, his character work and presence have to make an impact and stand out. He could be working on Switchblade in secret, but he was nothing like that portrayal on the indies. On Power Struggle, I overall liked his re-debut, and yet, he struck me as kind of an early NXT Baron Corbin rip-off in demeanor. And I don't mean that nicely, as I don't like Baron Corbin's character even now that he somewhat developed. I will trust Gedo, because he earned the benefit of the doubt. But I do have my worries.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Angry216 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:52 am

Totally. It's not conventional to be this bold. But, like you mentioned, Gedo has succeeded in all of them. The worries are legit. But I think Gedo will do everything to put him in a position to succeed, something he deserves credit for. He might throw you into the deep end, but he'll make sure they have something to build off of.

Everything else is on Jay to deliver. Plus, who better to guide him than Tanahashi?
Last edited by Angry216 on Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:43 am

EVIL is still a dork with a plastic sickle with goofy lights coming out of his fingers, nothing has changed, and it doesn't matter anymore. Why? He delivers and he's credible bell to bell.

These White complaints won't matter at all and will look silly in hindsight if he gets over in the ring and is presented as a big deal.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Tigerkinney » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:46 am

My take on Jay White is that his 'edgy man in black' character is a bit overdone in the world of wrestling but come Wrestle Kingdom, I'm just looking for him to deliver an excellent match with Tanahashi, something I'm sure he's capable of. He will have time to flesh out his character afterwards or as in the case of EVIL find a way to make the gimmick work.

As for this year's World Tag League, I was going to come on here and mention how it's a smart move not to have the big names in it this year but I noticed that Lanza already mentioned that point in the roundtable preview for the tournament. There will probably still be stretches where the WTL is dull (especially during the single cam shows) but at least it will be a lot more unpredictable this year to pick who the winner is going to be. You can tell though that Tag League is pretty low in the current NJPW hierarchy of tournament's, from the fact that G-1 and BOSJ get the whole participants preview video package deal and all Tag League gets is a website announcement.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by JamieOD » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:01 pm

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... vihJwI5b32

New Japan is now adding English and Japanese subtitles to their post-match interviews on Youtube. The notable ones here are Cody challenging Ibushi, Goto confronting Suzuki, the Juniors setting up the 4 Way and Tenzan's sad announcement of one of his mentors passing away.

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