NJPW (Discussion)

Talk Puro, Lucha, Europe and "I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/CARIBBEAN/AFRICA"
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Heather
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Heather » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:21 pm

Predictions for New Japan Cup:

Ishii over Elgin
Juice over Yujiro
Tanahashi over Taichi
Fale over Archer

Ibushi over YOSHI-HASHI
Sabre over Naito
Yano over DBS Jr
SANADA over Chuckie T

Ishii over Juice
Tanahashi over Fale
Sabre over Ibushi
Yano over SANADA

Ishii over Tanahashi
Sabre over Yano

Ishii over Sabre (Ishii has 2 losses to Sabre from 2017 to redeem himself from, the U.S. Title Tournament and the G1. Ishii wins this, picks his title shot, and Switchblade is once again the smartest guy in the room. Ishii would lose against Okada at Sakura Genesis of course, but I hope he gets to go for it.)

But with my luck, Sexy Chuckie T makes it to the finals against Juice :lol:

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Ckkj14
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Ckkj14 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:41 pm

Ishii over Elgin
Juice over Yujiro
Tanahashi over Taichi
Fale over Archer

Ibushi over Yoshi Hashi
Naito over Sabre
Yano over DBS Jr
Chuckie T over Sanada

Ishii over Juice
Fale over Tanahashi
Naito over Ibushi
Chuckie T over Yano

Ishii over Fale
Naito over Chuckie T

Ishii over Naito

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dancecab
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by dancecab » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:34 pm

Ishii over Elgin
Juice over Yujiro
Taichi over Tana
Fale over Archer

Yoshi over Ibushi
Sabre over Naito
Yano over DBS
Sanada over Chuckie T

Ishii over Juice
Fale over Taichi
Sabre over Yoshi
Yano over Sanada

Ishii over Fale
Sabre over Yano

Sabre over Ishii

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King Of Indy Style
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by King Of Indy Style » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 pm

Ishii over Elgin
Juice over Yujiro
Taichi over Tanahashi
Fale over Archer

Ibushi over Yoshi
Sabre over Naito
Yano over DBS
Sanada over Chuckie T

Ishii over Juice
Fale over Taichi
Sabre over Yoshi
Sanada over Yano

Ishii over Fale
Sabre over Sanada

Ishii over Sabre
Image

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Garuda
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Garuda » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:23 pm

Wow, am I going to have to eat my hat on the strong stance against Ishii having a shot?

My main question is whether Taichi or Fale takes out Tana.
Also, watch Yano beat SANADA and fuck me on this.

Ishii over Elgin
Juice over Yujiro
Taichi over Tanahashi
Fale over Archer

Ibushi over Yoshi
Sabre over Naito
Yano over DBS
SANADA over Chuckie T

Ishii over Juice
Fale over Taichi
Ibushi over Sabre
SANADA over Yano

Ishii over Fale
Ibushi over SANADA

Ibushi over Ishii

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Jacob's Bawks
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Jacob's Bawks » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:35 pm

Better late than never for Suzukigun to live up to their potential, eh? Assuming Taichi keeps wrestling as a more straight-and-forward bruiser, Suzuki keeps clean, and the Kanemaru/Desperado team remains constant than Suzukigun could be called Actually Good.

To get it out of the way: I hate the booking. Absolutely detest the Roppongi 3k handling. Did Gedo hate being held down in a tag-team and decide to make it his goal to shaft tag-teams as a whole? Like Jado in NOAH; you can't tell me they aren't taking the piss. Anyways, in a vacuum the 3-way, although one of the weaker junior tags recently, was one of the better 3-way tags the division's had. 3k are good at getting sympathy, LPD are good at turning things up, Kanemaru/Desperado are legitimately good heels. It was a pretty basic but well laid-out match with clearly-defined roles that wasn't just "guys doing stuff". The ending was a hell of a lot of fun, chaotic with an impressively creative finish. Hiromu took Kanemaru's whiskey afterward and posted a weird video of a Desperado mask on Twitter (didn't actually watch it), safe to say Los Peligrosos Dos might be next-in-line and it'll be 2v2.

Suzuki succeeding in drawing sympathy for Makabe. Bless him. I was actually pretty surprised at how decisive it was all the way through - it was ugly at points (in a good way) but Makabe being that effective on bottom was a pleasant surprise. The knee-work was real good without overdoing it, Makabe didn't overdo or underdo the selling, just worked all-around.

Taichi vs Naito got me wondering: has Gedo gotten better at booking cheap heel gimmicks or have I gotten used to it? Naito/Taichi was good, Taichi's flashes of intensity were really good but I'm still reserved in-case he turns into a heatless dud like YOSHI-HASHI did after a decent few-month run. I was against it at first but it's a decent filler feud until they give Naito something big. My assumption is Naito will be going after Suzuki's IC Title since he's being positioned against Suzukigun guys a lot. He'll lose to Zack in the Cup, win the rematch, be slotted with the IC Title again.
I dunno what I'm doing but come follow me on Twitter @Jacobs_Bawks

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:28 am

Just finished the anniversary show and I have to say that at the end of the year we are gonna look back realize how consistent the quality of this show was. I am gonna focus this post and my thoughts on the singles matches because all four were really good. Also this show reminds me of one of those middle of the tournament burnt out G1 nights. It's got a weird semi subdued weekday crowd, that isn't necessarily invested in random tournament matches with no story or build with a bunch of midcard acts vs main eventers and the crowd is spotty but the boys all go out bust their asses and end up having nothing but quality matches in spite of the crowd.

1) Yoshi-Hashi v Sanada: I think I might be the high man on this match. I had it at 4.25 stars and I think it might be Yoshi-Hashi's best singles match ever. Only other ones I can come up with are the Nagata match that opened the G1 last year and the Omega matches in 2016. To the detractors of this match, yes it was a little ploddy in places but these two guys tend to slow down in all their singles matches. It's something you have to expect. But I thought the opening sequence was on fire and the crowd was just not anywhere near invested in this thrown together story-less match so that is understandable. Crowd was hooked by the end and both guys really bumped hard and moved fast to elevated the ending IMO. I hope this really is the turning for both guys and this is the consistent effort we are gonna get in every singles opportunity going forward.

2) Taichi v Naito: I got this at 4 stars and this also might be my favorite Taichi singles match ever. Crowd helped this one along as it was the match they were the most invested in from the jump. Naito was a God of selling in this match and it did wonders to make Taichi look like a scummy bruiser who can hang at heavyweight. Also props to them starting hot and really making Taichi look strong in defeat. Hope to see this more focused and less antics driven Taichi more often.

3) Suzuki v Makabe: This was about what I thought it was gonna be going in. They didn't focus on the leg work as much as I had predicted a week ago but it still played a crucial role in the match. Overall it was good to see Makabe brawl and draw crowd sympathy while Suzuki was his usual gnarly self. Aside from the hanging triangle slip this match was worked clean and crisp and was just the right length. I gave it 4 stars as well.

4) Ospreay v Okada: The most underrated match on the card IMO. I think this is mostly the victim of expectations as people were thinking that Okada was gonna all of sudden gonna start going springboard for springboard with Ospreay or take reverse hurricanrana apron bumps. That was bar set to high for a non-angle, non-title match on the anniversary show in front of a smaller crowd. Personally I feel like we got a much better match for several reasons:
- It allowed Okada and Ospreay to show how versatile they can be. Most of Okada's big time main events are him working to his opponent's style of match while being able to work in his spots smoothly and cohesively in order to tell a story. This match was not about Okada surviving and adapting to retain a title or get 2 points in the G1. This was Okada wanting to stretch himself out stylistically (kayfabe and otherwise) hence the superb grappling sequences and varied striking sequences. Ditto for Ospreay because that guy always has to fight the uphill battle of the dumb notion that he is a spot monkey.
- Great character development for Ospreay. Ospreay wanted the respect of Okada and not to be treated like he was non-threat sparring partner. I really loved the seeds planted for Ospreay and the beginning of his journey to heavyweight. "I'm my own fucking man" was a great moment and is one that we will look back on as the turning point for Ospreay once he becomes a heavyweight in year or two and is tearing up main events and G1s.
-Loved the finishing sequence as it really displayed how the biggest difference between Okada and Ospreay is Ospreay's need to be flashy and take risks while Okada's success is predicated on sticking to a simple game plan that takes advantage of opportunities. I don't think Okada broke out of a 4 foot radius in the middle of the ring during that entire finishing sequence. He was content in letting Ospreay bounce around him until he caught him a couple of times. Another lesson for Ospreay to learn in time.
-Finally, the seeds of Okada's demise in the form of his pride were glaring once again. Aside from the heeling off mid-match to garner some extra heat Okada was relatively level headed throughout the match until the very end when he went overkill and just barraged Will with rainmakers. Was it necessary? No but Okada has to make a point (because Okada always has to make the damn point) about how dominant he is. One of these days somebody(Naito) is gonna turn that arrogance and the need for exclamation points against Okada and it will be sweet poetic justice and the crowd will so hot that they will create an active volcano.
-4.5 star match.

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Tigerkinney
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Tigerkinney » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:10 pm

Bloodbuzz Bunk wrote: Ospreay v Okada: The most underrated match on the card IMO. I think this is mostly the victim of expectations as people .
Agree with what you posted above, I too am surprised at how underappreciated this match was. To me alot of fans come across as being a bit foolish, if they were expecting Ospreay to push Okada to the absolute limit, especially when he's still a Junior and hasn't had a dominant run with the Junior belt as of yet. They told the right story here, with Ospreay showing that he's a highly skilled wrestler but one who isn't quite strong and/or ring-smart enough yet to step up to Okada's level.

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suplexberry
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by suplexberry » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:19 pm

I think my perspective on Okada has changed. I am finding it more and more difficult to get into his matches these days. I don't think it is ever an issue that a wrestler has a formula, because I think that is one of the things that fans come to shows for, to see the match that such-and-such wrestler typically has, but I think once I read a critique of his match formula and then was disappointed by the WK12 outcome, Okada's formula started wearing thin for me. The length of his title defences is a fact but it doesn't matter if the match is good and keeps me engaged. And the matches are good, but they're not engaging me on the level that I feel main events ought to.

A friend of mine once said, regarding movies, "predictable is good if it's what you want to see". If you want this long, dominant title reign, then you're fine with it being predictable. I truly feel like Okada has run through the credible opponents and all that's left are rematches and counting defences until the next beaten record, so I don't buy into his opponents, I don't enjoy the matches, and I don't like the champion anymore. I don't like this flavor of predictable, so I don't enjoy the matches as much.

Now it's gotten me into this corner where even if a guy I absolutely love, an Ibushi or an Ishii, wins the Cup and makes the challenge, my expectation will be that because of the story they're telling, Okada is not losing, therefore the next guy is just the next step, and while I will cheer for them, want them to win, they won't, and therefore the match won't be as amazing as it could be, if I fully bought in that anything could happen.

I'm sure people will disagree with me here, and that's fine. I'm also not saying Okada matches are bleh and I get nothing out of them, that's not true, but the first year of his reign was infinitely more interesting and enjoyable to me. I believed in his opponents' chances, I loved the variety in matches, I liked the stories in those matches, and even the long ones didn't feel it.

So when it came to this Ospreay match, I wanted something different I guess, especially since it wasn't a title match. Instead it was just a good match that left me surprisingly cold, considering how much I like Ospreay. I suspect my overall shift in opinion on Okada has a lot to do with it.

Bloodbuzz Bunk
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:35 pm

suplexberry wrote:I think my perspective on Okada has changed. I am finding it more and more difficult to get into his matches these days. I don't think it is ever an issue that a wrestler has a formula, because I think that is one of the things that fans come to shows for, to see the match that such-and-such wrestler typically has, but I think once I read a critique of his match formula and then was disappointed by the WK12 outcome, Okada's formula started wearing thin for me. The length of his title defences is a fact but it doesn't matter if the match is good and keeps me engaged. And the matches are good, but they're not engaging me on the level that I feel main events ought to.

A friend of mine once said, regarding movies, "predictable is good if it's what you want to see". If you want this long, dominant title reign, then you're fine with it being predictable. I truly feel like Okada has run through the credible opponents and all that's left are rematches and counting defences until the next beaten record, so I don't buy into his opponents, I don't enjoy the matches, and I don't like the champion anymore. I don't like this flavor of predictable, so I don't enjoy the matches as much.

Now it's gotten me into this corner where even if a guy I absolutely love, an Ibushi or an Ishii, wins the Cup and makes the challenge, my expectation will be that because of the story they're telling, Okada is not losing, therefore the next guy is just the next step, and while I will cheer for them, want them to win, they won't, and therefore the match won't be as amazing as it could be, if I fully bought in that anything could happen.

I'm sure people will disagree with me here, and that's fine. I'm also not saying Okada matches are bleh and I get nothing out of them, that's not true, but the first year of his reign was infinitely more interesting and enjoyable to me. I believed in his opponents' chances, I loved the variety in matches, I liked the stories in those matches, and even the long ones didn't feel it.

So when it came to this Ospreay match, I wanted something different I guess, especially since it wasn't a title match. Instead it was just a good match that left me surprisingly cold, considering how much I like Ospreay. I suspect my overall shift in opinion on Okada has a lot to do with it.
I think that's a reasonable and well explained opinion. I don't necessarily share it but it has merit. Okada's epic title run will be remembered for 5 matches from 1/4/17-7/3/17. We all thought Omega could win at WK11 and Dominion, we mostly bought in to Suzuki or Shibata beating Okada enough to win, and we were all terrified that Cody would get the title gift wrapped to him in LB. Okada has had good-great matches with LIJ but it does feel a little sour that he ran through some of the hottest most promising guys in NJPW and it didn't really get any of them more over in defeat.

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Frank Olson
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Frank Olson » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:03 am

It's hard to deny that Okada has run through all of the credible challengers in New Japan, and that they'll likely never recapture the magic of his 2017 run, but I do find it fascinating to speculate on how his reign will end. I assume that Gedo has some sort of plan, but I truly have no idea what it is.

That said, post-Wrestle Kingdom I've been a lot more invested in stuff on the margins of the main event scene (the Bullet Club civil war, the sudden resurgence of Minoru Suzuki as a good wrestler, everything involving Jay White) or on the undercard (Toa Henare's slow burn feud with Ishii, David Finlay's quest for redemption against Jay White, everything involving Roppongi 3K) than I have been in what Okada or Naito are doing.

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Lawsoncomedy
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:51 am

Bloodbuzz Bunk wrote:
suplexberry wrote:I think my perspective on Okada has changed. I am finding it more and more difficult to get into his matches these days. I don't think it is ever an issue that a wrestler has a formula, because I think that is one of the things that fans come to shows for, to see the match that such-and-such wrestler typically has, but I think once I read a critique of his match formula and then was disappointed by the WK12 outcome, Okada's formula started wearing thin for me. The length of his title defences is a fact but it doesn't matter if the match is good and keeps me engaged. And the matches are good, but they're not engaging me on the level that I feel main events ought to.

A friend of mine once said, regarding movies, "predictable is good if it's what you want to see". If you want this long, dominant title reign, then you're fine with it being predictable. I truly feel like Okada has run through the credible opponents and all that's left are rematches and counting defences until the next beaten record, so I don't buy into his opponents, I don't enjoy the matches, and I don't like the champion anymore. I don't like this flavor of predictable, so I don't enjoy the matches as much.

Now it's gotten me into this corner where even if a guy I absolutely love, an Ibushi or an Ishii, wins the Cup and makes the challenge, my expectation will be that because of the story they're telling, Okada is not losing, therefore the next guy is just the next step, and while I will cheer for them, want them to win, they won't, and therefore the match won't be as amazing as it could be, if I fully bought in that anything could happen.

I'm sure people will disagree with me here, and that's fine. I'm also not saying Okada matches are bleh and I get nothing out of them, that's not true, but the first year of his reign was infinitely more interesting and enjoyable to me. I believed in his opponents' chances, I loved the variety in matches, I liked the stories in those matches, and even the long ones didn't feel it.

So when it came to this Ospreay match, I wanted something different I guess, especially since it wasn't a title match. Instead it was just a good match that left me surprisingly cold, considering how much I like Ospreay. I suspect my overall shift in opinion on Okada has a lot to do with it.
I think that's a reasonable and well explained opinion. I don't necessarily share it but it has merit. Okada's epic title run will be remembered for 5 matches from 1/4/17-7/3/17. We all thought Omega could win at WK11 and Dominion, we mostly bought in to Suzuki or Shibata beating Okada enough to win, and we were all terrified that Cody would get the title gift wrapped to him in LB. Okada has had good-great matches with LIJ but it does feel a little sour that he ran through some of the hottest most promising guys in NJPW and it didn't really get any of them more over in defeat.
I agree that suplexberry's opinion is reasonable and well explained. I do think it's more than those 5 matches, though. The WK 12 match I think most people thought he would lose, and it's a major match in his run.

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Lawsoncomedy
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:56 am

Heather wrote:
Ishii over Sabre (Ishii has 2 losses to Sabre from 2017 to redeem himself from, the U.S. Title Tournament and the G1. Ishii wins this, picks his title shot, and Switchblade is once again the smartest guy in the room. Ishii would lose against Okada at Sakura Genesis of course, but I hope he gets to go for it.)

I like this, only thing is Ishii and Sabre are 1 and 1, Ishii won the US title tournament match. But this could still go down. I think Ishii does take this whole thing, against either Sabre or Ibushi in the finals. H's got that win over Okada in a MOTY from 2016, and like you said Switchblade is right once again.

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Goat
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Goat » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:55 pm

My favorite thing in wrestling right now is watching people work themselves into a shoot over Ishii beating Okada in a random G1 match once must mean that his title shot is right around the corner.

Bloodbuzz Bunk
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:16 pm

Well that was a surprising finish. I hope this doesn't portend some weird future where Michael Elgin actually wins the Cup. But I'm now a lot more concerned about a Taichi upset than I ever was before.

Btw Juice got a really good match out of Yujiro. I'm still amazed at how good Juice is at selling and making that genuine baby face connection. That's two good singles match efforts in a row for Yujiro( dating back to the Beretta match at Destruction last year) so I wonder if this is the annual effort for him or if he is trying harder to get back into the midcard and the G1.

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