NJPW (Discussion)

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suplexberry
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by suplexberry » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:20 pm

suplexberry wrote:I have 10,000 word thoughts about Naito vs Okada so I'll type them elsewhere. I am so hyped for WK12.
So, not quite 10k words but anyway, here's a thing I wrote about Naito's character.

I rewatched Kushida vs Ospreay today, still brilliant, and Ishii vs Naito, which was just .. wow. I don't why this match felt so special the second time around, but it did. It felt like an encapsulation of their previous matches, with just a great in-built story of Ishii's knee, Naito's nonchalance and all these fantastic, simple sequences where Naito disrespects Ishii and Ishii fights back with a vengeance, only to be taken down by another vicious, well-targeted attack on the knee. When Ishii fights through a suplex and just powers back up, it's like that fighting spirit is just the perfect logical conclusion of what he's been through the entire match. I don't know, I was just in fucking love with this match, in a way I don't remember being with the other Naito vs Ishii matches, as fantastic as they were.

And Kawato teaming with KUSHIDA .. it's like they book this shit for me. God. So excited.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:39 pm

suplexberry wrote:
suplexberry wrote:I have 10,000 word thoughts about Naito vs Okada so I'll type them elsewhere. I am so hyped for WK12.
So, not quite 10k words but anyway, here's a thing I wrote about Naito's character.

I rewatched Kushida vs Ospreay today, still brilliant, and Ishii vs Naito, which was just .. wow. I don't why this match felt so special the second time around, but it did. It felt like an encapsulation of their previous matches, with just a great in-built story of Ishii's knee, Naito's nonchalance and all these fantastic, simple sequences where Naito disrespects Ishii and Ishii fights back with a vengeance, only to be taken down by another vicious, well-targeted attack on the knee. When Ishii fights through a suplex and just powers back up, it's like that fighting spirit is just the perfect logical conclusion of what he's been through the entire match. I don't know, I was just in fucking love with this match, in a way I don't remember being with the other Naito vs Ishii matches, as fantastic as they were.

And Kawato teaming with KUSHIDA .. it's like they book this shit for me. God. So excited.
That's a wonderful write up of Naito's career defining arc. That public rejection was simultaneously the best and worst thing to ever happen to him. I also love how the adoption of the carefree and wild persona has effected Naito's ring work. Every time Naito stalls, lays down, or violently attempts to cripple his opponent's knee it's a perfect expression of Naito's need and desire to control his situation. By letting go of caring about fan's reactions Naito learned how to regain control of his career so the fact that Naito purposefully drags out his matches by taunting and grinding down guys is just perfect character and ring work synchronization.

I also think this idea of rejection really ties LIJ together as well. Sanada was rejected by the NJPW dojo and rejected by AJPW and Wrestle-1 in favor of KAI( I mayhave that last Part mixed up), EVIL's rejection on excursion was well known, and Himrou is currently being humbled rejected for title shots and it seems to be preparing him for his next evolution as a character. It also really helps explain the group's popularity, these are guys who were losers and just let go and let their imagination run wild and now the wrestling world is in the palm of their hands.

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rollup
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by rollup » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:34 pm

i attended KOPW , and i recommend that if you ever come to Japan for Puro, do try to attend a Sumo Hall events as it is one of the best arenas due to the noise it contains.
  • i don't know what Dave Meltzer says , but Tokyo crowds react to anything
  • for whats its worth , Scrull's autograph session was sold out
  • best match is Naito vs Ishii.
  • best reaction was Okada interrupting the Tranquilo line
  • Evil vs Okada unfortunately only reached good levels. However Evil is a made man now with that entrance

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suplexberry
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by suplexberry » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:45 am

Bloodbuzz Bunk wrote:
suplexberry wrote:
suplexberry wrote:I have 10,000 word thoughts about Naito vs Okada so I'll type them elsewhere. I am so hyped for WK12.
So, not quite 10k words but anyway, here's a thing I wrote about Naito's character..
That's a wonderful write up of Naito's career defining arc. That public rejection was simultaneously the best and worst thing to ever happen to him. I also love how the adoption of the carefree and wild persona has effected Naito's ring work. Every time Naito stalls, lays down, or violently attempts to cripple his opponent's knee it's a perfect expression of Naito's need and desire to control his situation. By letting go of caring about fan's reactions Naito learned how to regain control of his career so the fact that Naito purposefully drags out his matches by taunting and grinding down guys is just perfect character and ring work synchronization.
Yes, control is a big part of it, too. He's slowly beginning to gesture to the crowd again (especially during final stretches), though not as much as when he was a babyface. But he didn't use to, at all, except when he was looking to make the boos he got even louder. And ironically, this unflappable persona who takes a beating with a smirk because he tries to maintain the appearance of not being too affected by it, has actually lead to a lot of wins for him - so he keeps it up.

This is the stuff that makes me so invested in NJPW, honestly, the fact that we can actually look at all these details from in-ring to promos and have them be coherent enough to make sense.

rollup - Agreed about Sumo Hall as a venue. Great place. No bad seat in the house, noise doesn't disappear, just a great place.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:27 am

I was pretty surprised at how over Scurll was for working such limited tours. Funny hearing fans do the WOOP WOOP on his entrance.

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Lawsoncomedy
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:50 pm

I must be the high man on the Evil match. Not as good as their G1, but I had it at ****1/4. They did a bunch of cool stuff in there. Not revolutionary like other Okada matches, but still great.

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Jacob's Bawks
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Jacob's Bawks » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:14 am

I was talking to someone in a Discord chat about the Hiromu/buried thing and they brought up a good comparison: Kurt Angle. Someone who could go from a goofy idiot to badass depending on the situation, and be believable every time. If that's what they're doing with Hiromu, it's bold but God bless the mad bastards. One thing's for sure; judging by the near-deafening Hiromu chants as he lay wailing on the floor, his booking certainly isn't hurting his popularity. I hate that Ospreay won the title and so soon, but if they have him on lockdown beyond 2018 than it's not as bad.

Anyways, the Jr Tag League is very interesting to me. First thing's first, the rematch between Titan/Dragon Lee and BUSHI/Hiromu is the one I'm looking most forward to. They had a really underrated tag during Fantasticamania this year that went under a lot of people's radars. But mostly, I wonder how far RPG 3k will go. On one hand they just returned so naturally they'd ride their new wave of momentum, but reigning champs don't ever make it far AND they're fighting KUSHIDA/Kawato in Korakuen Hall which could be a dead giveaway. Might be wishful thinking on my part, but YOH and SHO are still young so maybe they play that up to set up the loss in some way. Regardless who wins that match, I don't see BUSHI and Hiromu winning at all seeing as Hiromu is still hovering over Belto-san and he's probably challenging for WK. I might see Taguchi/ACH winning the whole thing, the former deserves a spot on the card. Although Kanemaru's last five years have been him basically getting drunk and falling upwards inexplicably, so a Suzukigun challenge might be possible. Him and Desperado were supposed to challenge earlier in the year but Despy's minor knee injury stopped that so maybe they'll give it another try. They also book Kanemaru pretty high so perhaps.

To me, the final is RPG 3k/LIJ vs. KaneDespy/Taguchi Japan. LIJ has no chance of winning so if they make it to the Finals than that's that. IF RPG 3k win it than I can totally see the Bucks return and make a challenge for WK and that be their swan song for the Junior division before going heavy.

Juice pinning Makabe at KoPW shouldn't be ignored; Makabe rarely goes down. I'd honestly not be surprised if Juice gets booked strong in the WTL. Might be too much too soon, but him challenging for the Tag Titles is something I'd not be against. I think NEVER Trios is more fitting though.

I'm curious how the NEVER Trios titles will be handled going forward. EVIL could challenge Suzuki and I'm almost expecting it since he's riding such a wave of momentum, but he'd have to lose the Trios Title which also frees up SANADA and BUSHI. We could go with Suzuki vs Goto again, and I'd have to slap Gedo across the face for subjecting us to that shit, but Suzuki fighting CHAOS again and opposite Goto in a lot of tags makes me wince at what might come.

Last note: Okada, Omega, Suzuki, Ospreay, SHO & YOH, and KES seem guaranteed to be champions going into WK.
I dunno what I'm doing but come follow me on Twitter @Jacobs_Bawks

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:53 pm

Lawsoncomedy wrote:I must be the high man on the Evil match. Not as good as their G1, but I had it at ****1/4. They did a bunch of cool stuff in there. Not revolutionary like other Okada matches, but still great.
I believe Joe went ****1/2 in our review on the site. I am well below that and pretty disappointed by it overall. Of course, disappointed in an Okada main event is like ***1/2-**** but he's raised that bar.

I thought it had a lot of fun work in it and good storytelling it just went WAY too long and the last half of the match felt like a drag.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Tigerkinney » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:15 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
Lawsoncomedy wrote:I must be the high man on the Evil match. Not as good as their G1, but I had it at ****1/4. They did a bunch of cool stuff in there. Not revolutionary like other Okada matches, but still great.
I believe Joe went ****1/2 in our review on the site. I am well below that and pretty disappointed by it overall. Of course, disappointed in an Okada main event is like ***1/2-**** but he's raised that bar.

I thought it had a lot of fun work in it and good storytelling it just went WAY too long and the last half of the match felt like a drag.
I'm around **** on Okada vs EVIL- I can understand Joe's enthusiasm for the match as the work and storytelling was actually very good but it could have been edited down a bit (Does every IWGP title defence have to be an 'epic' that exceeds 30 minutes?!) and it also unfortunately suffered from the fact that the winner was a foregone conclusion, though to a degree Naito vs Ishii suffered from the same problem. New Japan need to find a way to make the stretch between G1 and Wrestle Kingdom to be less predictable- because as much as the wrestlers may have their working boots on, a predictable result does take away from the experience- at least for me it does. They either need to scrap the G-1 winner challenges at Wrestle Kingdom idea or pull the trigger on someone winning the G-1 but losing the title shot- pretty soon- as in next year.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Tigerkinney » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:27 pm

Jacob's Bawks wrote: To me, the final is RPG 3k/LIJ vs. KaneDespy/Taguchi Japan. LIJ has no chance of winning so if they make it to the Finals than that's that. IF RPG 3k win it than I can totally see the Bucks return and make a challenge for WK and that be their swan song for the Junior division before going heavy.
3K winning the Tag League to assert their dominance over the division but then getting challenged The Young Bucks (with the Bucks ultimately putting 3K over) is a scenario I can very much see happening myself. It's highly possibly they kept YB out of the Junior Tag tournament, so they could keep the match up with 3K fresh for Wrestle Kingdom.

I'd probably then have the new Taguchi Japan duo as my second favourites- I very much agree that L.I.J have a good chance of making the finals but not winning the tournament as Hiromu seems destined for a shot at the singles belt and BUSHI is still one third of the NEVER trio's champion's.

Speaking of Taguchi Japan- if you've not seen the post match interviews on New Japan World- Ricochet looks to be done with New Japan, he said it was his fault for losing the match (his excuse being that he had things on his mind- which you can probably interpret as a contract offer from Vince/Uncle Paul) and then thanked Taguchi for letting him be part of Taguchi Japan (calling it one of the best groups he has been part of) plus he gave thanks to being part of New Japan in general- pretty much came off as a farewell speech to me.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by suplexberry » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:13 am

Dave gave Ishii vs Naito 4.75 and to my surprise I rather agree; I've rewatched it twice now and it gets better each time. So much detail in it and amazing selling by both. I'll probably forget how much I liked it by December when drawing up a MOTY list but for now, it's neck and neck with Kushi vs Ospreay as a MOTN. The luxury of choice.

Lions Gate 8 was a fun show, thought the HEAT UP guy did good against Nagata in the main event, though I'd be lying if I didn't say I missed Ayato Yoshida on these shows and hope he returns. I think everybody came off well in the YLC matches: Kawato was his usual great self, Umino showed some great fire, Yagi killed it. Narita may still be finding his feet a bit but he took the fight to Kawato all the same.

Ayoagi looks to be headed to a singles match against Kojima. I like Yuma a lot and I hope no AJPW fans get too annoyed at how the booking of that match may pan out - Lions Gate booking is pretty predictable.

Anyway, as much as I thought in August Ibushi vs Omega was a lock for the Dome, two months later and I can't see how the fuck they get there at Power Struggle. A tad worried.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Danwaka » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:04 am

Yuma losing to Kojima irritates me a lot less than SUWAMA did. He's still a youngster even if he's no longer a young lion, so him losing to a Triple Crown Champion is okay by me.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Leo C » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:59 pm

I mean, Yuma's a Junior. I don't think there's much to be upset over here. I'm still very curious about how the NJPW/AJPW relationship is gonna pan out but if I had to bet it's gonna just be some AJPW guys working these shows.

I really liked all the YL Cup matches. They seemed to let the guys do a little bit more in terms of move variety and it really helped. I enjoyed Kawato's Spinning Kick thingy and Kitamura using the Jackhammer. Great fun.

Nakanishi vs Yoshino was what you'd expect, Nakanishi vs DINOSAUR should be fun as long as no one catches me watching it.

Main event was pretty fun. I'm also waiting for the return of Yoshida, but apparently he is still recovering from the injury so I'm guessing as soon as he returns Nagata will be waiting for him.

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:25 pm

Young Lion Cup thoughts:
First off, I loved the crowd as they know Oka and Kitamura are the favorites to win the cup and subsequently got behind Yagi and Umino as underdogs.
Secondly, Kawato is the man and the fact that they letting him work in springboard dropkicks and spinning kicks is a nice sign. This first match was the sloppiest in terms of taking bumps and actual mat wrestling sequences but I really shouldn't be to picky about that with Young LIons

However, Yagi is a future wunderkind. That guy is gonna be a great grappler in a few years. Yagi, besides showing his usual relentless viciousness, was the coolest cat of the bunch as he totally worked through Kitamura's botched triangle choke reverse into the powerbomb spot by using his relentless nature to get the spot setup again without ever letting go of Kitamura. It was a vet move. Whoever showed Kitamura some old Goldberg tapes is a genius.

Lastly, I think I enjoyed the Oka v Umino match the most just because Oka is Baby Ishii and one day he will ceremoniously fulfill the dream of Ishii winning the Heavyweight Title. Umino was a smart worker in the match going after Oka's leg and generally trying to ground Oka but he still hasn't found a unique personality like Oka, Kitamura, Kawato, and Yagi have( same is true for Narita).

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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:26 pm

Tigerkinney wrote:
Rich Kraetsch wrote:
Lawsoncomedy wrote:I must be the high man on the Evil match. Not as good as their G1, but I had it at ****1/4. They did a bunch of cool stuff in there. Not revolutionary like other Okada matches, but still great.
I believe Joe went ****1/2 in our review on the site. I am well below that and pretty disappointed by it overall. Of course, disappointed in an Okada main event is like ***1/2-**** but he's raised that bar.

I thought it had a lot of fun work in it and good storytelling it just went WAY too long and the last half of the match felt like a drag.
I'm around **** on Okada vs EVIL- I can understand Joe's enthusiasm for the match as the work and storytelling was actually very good but it could have been edited down a bit (Does every IWGP title defence have to be an 'epic' that exceeds 30 minutes?!) and it also unfortunately suffered from the fact that the winner was a foregone conclusion, though to a degree Naito vs Ishii suffered from the same problem. New Japan need to find a way to make the stretch between G1 and Wrestle Kingdom to be less predictable- because as much as the wrestlers may have their working boots on, a predictable result does take away from the experience- at least for me it does. They either need to scrap the G-1 winner challenges at Wrestle Kingdom idea or pull the trigger on someone winning the G-1 but losing the title shot- pretty soon- as in next year.
This isn't going to change unless these predictable result matches stop filling Sumo Hall for KOPW. When fans reject these cards, the company will be forced to respond with more compelling matchups in the G1-WK "down" period"

It's also entirely possible that the NJPW fanbase at large doesnt look at these matches through the same lens that we do. This is a super hardcore forum. Random Joe Fan in Tokyo might have bought into EVIL vs Ishii as a realistic match for WK, as hard as that is to comprehend. Or at least enough Random Joe Fans to put almost 10,000 people in the building.

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