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Jacob's Bawks
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Jacob's Bawks » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:40 am

mrjoshdude wrote:I was at the RevPro York Hall show about a week or so ago and got my picture with Goto, thinking back I wish I'd asked him (or the translator he had next to him) if he knew anything about Shibata's condition and to send the UK's best wishes. Can't go back in time though I suppose.
I'll have to do some digging, but Goto did give a statement to the press saying something to the effect of he believes in Shibata's ability and spirit to pull through. I think either reasonjp or STRIGGA posted the news article on Twitter.
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Ferrante207
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Ferrante207 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:09 am

Frank Olson wrote:Is anybody else finding the excursions of Jay White, Sho Tanaka, and Yohei Komatsu to be kind of lackluster? I realize that not everyone can be The Great Muta or Kamaitachi, but most of the stuff I've seen from these three outside of Japan has been kind of flat. Some of that probably comes down to booking (and promoters in ROH, Rev Pro, and CMLL being afraid to do anything substantial with them since New Japan could bring them back into the fold at any time), but it doesn't feel like they are doing much to get themselves over either.

White basically feels to me like he's still a young lion, except that he wins matches now. You could say the same for David Finlay I suppose, but he shows a lot more personality in the ring and I always look forward to seeing him even when he's in meaningless 6 or 8 man tags, whereas White kind of bores me even he's in singles matches against big name indie guys.

I haven't seen as much of Sho and Yo's excursion, but from what I've seen it seems like they are playing up the over-the-top heel shtick at the expense of their wrestling. It comes off like they are trying to be the next generation of TAKA and Taichi or something.

I know that there is a long history of New Japan talent having weak excursions and then coming back to Japan and being awesome (Okada and EVIL being recent examples), but right now these three don't seem like the future stars that I thought they seemed like when they were Young Lions.
I can't speak to cmll or rev pro but as a fairly close ROH watcher i can partially agree. Sho and Yohei were framed as a campy but capable curtain jerking curiosity. Jay White is framed portrayed as more credible, but nothing beyond mid card tv title challenger. Jay white's in ring work has been strong in ROH, and sho and yohei did shine with what they were given. Sho and Yohei did a solid job connecting with a fan base who doesn't really know them or have a reason to care.


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King Of Indy Style
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by King Of Indy Style » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:03 am

1. Ishii
2. Okada
3. Hiromu
4. Naito
5. Omega

I haven't been particularly high on White, to be quite honest. His ring work has been quite good in ROH, but something about him is just.....blah. And I thought his PWG debut with Scurll was lackluster at best due to hokey comedy and pedestrian wrestling. I place the blame on Scurll as well, but that should have been a better match for Jay. Sho and Yohei, when given the opportunity are quite good. I remember really enjoying a TV match they had with The Young Bucks a while back.
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suplexberry
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by suplexberry » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:50 am

Frank Olson wrote:Is anybody else finding the excursions of Jay White, Sho Tanaka, and Yohei Komatsu to be kind of lackluster? I realize that not everyone can be The Great Muta or Kamaitachi, but most of the stuff I've seen from these three outside of Japan has been kind of flat. [...]

I know that there is a long history of New Japan talent having weak excursions and then coming back to Japan and being awesome (Okada and EVIL being recent examples), but right now these three don't seem like the future stars that I thought they seemed like when they were Young Lions.
I don't follow ROH but based on RevPro it feels like White is getting "big deal booking" without feeling like one, if that makes any sense? Like Andy Quildan knows he's a big deal to NJPW so he's putting White in interesting match ups and White typically gets the win, except against Scurll, because Scurll obviously means a lot to RevPro in general, and is their #1/#2 guy depending on the day. Apart from the Scurll match at the Cockpit (which I would classify as very good), his matches have ended up good, though a bit underwhelming. The cards at RevPro suffer from a "oo much awesome" syndrome, there's so much promise in each match that one or two has to end up underwhelming and typically White's matches have been among those most underwhelming. I think he really needs to show more personality in front of the UK crowd especially. The confidence is there, it's just not projected into a character enough.

I think it might be my recency bias but I did expect these three to go all out and wow us with their excursions but hey, it could be worse, they aren't just sitting still in Jersey like EVIL was. EVIL almost had a one year "extra excursion" back home in Japan where he got comfortable with this new character, found his style and groove in the G1 and was solidified as awesome by the end of that year. That might happen with these guys, too. I'm pretty certain things will turn out fine for all three in the end: for one, they'll get Gedo's booking behind them, the home crowds in Japan will welcome them back, and they'll probably be extra motivated to work on that stage as well.

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cbacon87
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by cbacon87 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:18 am

If White is lacking an over the top personality, it'll probably be less of a deal in Japan than it might be now. There's probably a ceiling to being good white meat nice-guy babyface, but it's a higher ceiling than in a ROH.

This might be a bit of a generalisation, but it seems like they send guys to CMLL if they want guys to develop character and they send guys to ROH for other reasons. So I guess it depends what they're expecting of White to some degree. If they just want him to go out, have some matches and come back the same type of guy then there's no real incentive for him to be trying out new character stuff.

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Empiresk
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Empiresk » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:48 pm

cbacon87 wrote:If White is lacking an over the top personality, it'll probably be less of a deal in Japan than it might be now. There's probably a ceiling to being good white meat nice-guy babyface, but it's a higher ceiling than in a ROH.
I agree 100%. I have see him twice in the UK in recent months and he has been fine in the ring but lacks any presence. I am sure working with guys like Marty Scurll is going to help him in the long run though. It is a learning excursion afterall.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:38 pm

I'm not worried about White at all. When it comes to excursions, to me it's a bonus if they kill it like Great Muta or Kamaichi or to a lesser extent like Namajague did (people forget that Despy was pretty damn good in CMLL, because Hiromu came after and was world class). Watanabe was basically in witness protection and turned out fine. Okada couldn't have had a less impressive excursion on purpose. On the flip side, Yujiro did OK on his excursion and ended up being just a guy. So much of this depends on how they are used.

I agree White hasn't blown my doors off in ROH or really anywhere, but I think they know full well what they have in him, and he'll be over when he comes back which will help. And like others have said, back home the in ring will matter a little more and the personality will matter a little less.

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PKThree
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by PKThree » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:17 pm

I don't really buy the "personality matters less than ring skills in japan" argument.
All the guys who are on top are indeed great wrestlers, but they also have enigmatic and magnetic personalities that draw people in.

It's another very important piece of the puzzle. You can have all the Gedo booking you can get but if you don't have the personality to make use of it you'll end up a bit players like Yujiro.

That's why it is so smart to send the rookies abroad since they cannot rely on things like talking to get their stories across. They have to convey who they are through body language, posture, facial expressions and ring work. Heck, in Mexico they most times get put under a mask and have to learn hardcore how to send out their personalities.

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UditSharma
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by UditSharma » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:00 pm

I wish keith lee was in bad luck fale role

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Buzz Sawyer
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Buzz Sawyer » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:03 pm

cbacon87 wrote:If White is lacking an over the top personality, it'll probably be less of a deal in Japan than it might be now. There's probably a ceiling to being good white meat nice-guy babyface, but it's a higher ceiling than in a ROH.

This might be a bit of a generalisation, but it seems like they send guys to CMLL if they want guys to develop character and they send guys to ROH for other reasons. So I guess it depends what they're expecting of White to some degree. If they just want him to go out, have some matches and come back the same type of guy then there's no real incentive for him to be trying out new character stuff.
White was undefeated in ROH until recently when he lost to Jay Briscoe. He has been booked fine and held the biggest star in ROH history to a draw on TV and took him to the limit in his only loss. How can he be booked better then that?
Who's Rob Viper ?

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Danwaka
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Danwaka » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:35 pm

He could you know, have a storyline or a feud with someone.

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suplexberry
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by suplexberry » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:01 pm

PKThree wrote:I don't really buy the "personality matters less than ring skills in japan" argument.
All the guys who are on top are indeed great wrestlers, but they also have enigmatic and magnetic personalities that draw people in.

It's another very important piece of the puzzle. You can have all the Gedo booking you can get but if you don't have the personality to make use of it you'll end up a bit players like Yujiro.
This is true, and Yujiro is the perfect example. He's a perfectly fine enough wrestler, but produces nothing spectacular. His character technically fits him to the tee (he gives off the impression girls wouldn't hang out with him for free), but at the same time it's not setting the world on fire. It's just ..there. Without any nuance or spice. Compare this to Hiromu or Coach Taguchi or Naito or even cheesy Mr Ace, Tanahashi, and all of them are more interesting, more complete and more appealing as characters.

I showed my dad, a man in his 50's who recently got into BJJ (both training & watching), some matches from Sakura Genesis because I wanted to show him what I witnessed live. It was interesting to explain pro wrestling from a performance perspective to an enthusiast of a legitimate thing. Especially with Shibata vs Okada, I tried to explain how the characters inform their every action in the ring, how the show off machismo psychology compels them to take more punishment as opposed to just going for the win (the smart thing to do). I even explained basics like how you work a body part, and how a hold in wrestling just does nothing in the beginning of the match, unless that hold has been established previously as incredibly dangerous. There's a lot of weird logic that applies to wrestling as performance, and it's fascinating to have to put it into words, because as a fan, you learn it without meaning to. It's like learning a language through immersion, as opposed to learning from a book.

I'm rambling but anyway, in rewatching and trying to explain people's characters as the matches went on, I noticed how much character stuff there is in matches that I take for granted because it already makes sense to me. Most of it is not subtle (Coach Taguchi does coach things because he's a coach), but some of it really is. I could write a three page essay on how Okada's past informs his in-ring work, but for my dad I was just like, "Pampered kid who makes a ton of money, if he graps you by the wrist and hits you with something it's over." ('lariat' is impossible to translate).

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powerfulmgp
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by powerfulmgp » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:51 pm

Jay White is only 24. My ceiling on him is still as high as ever. He'll be a major player by the time he is in his late twenties.

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Danwaka
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by Danwaka » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:26 pm

New Young Lion debuts for NJPW at Lions Gate 5 called Tesuhiro Yagi. Beefy little young lion.

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mrjoshdude
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Re: Strong Style Spirit - New Japan catch all thread

Post by mrjoshdude » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:03 pm

suplexberry wrote: I showed my dad, a man in his 50's who recently got into BJJ (both training & watching), some matches from Sakura Genesis because I wanted to show him what I witnessed live. It was interesting to explain pro wrestling from a performance perspective to an enthusiast of a legitimate thing. Especially with Shibata vs Okada, I tried to explain how the characters inform their every action in the ring, how the show off machismo psychology compels them to take more punishment as opposed to just going for the win (the smart thing to do). I even explained basics like how you work a body part, and how a hold in wrestling just does nothing in the beginning of the match, unless that hold has been established previously as incredibly dangerous. There's a lot of weird logic that applies to wrestling as performance, and it's fascinating to have to put it into words, because as a fan, you learn it without meaning to. It's like learning a language through immersion, as opposed to learning from a book.
What did your Dad think of Okada vs. Shibata just out of interest?

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