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Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:07 pm
by Danwaka
PKThree wrote:It's a downside of having a small roster I guess.
Downside of AJPW having too many titles for so small a roster. We're at 2 AA titles, 3 World titles plus a GAORA title. And then there's the !BANG! title whenever Dory comes by for a tour. And of course, there's five yearly tournaments.

Passing the All-Asia titles to LANDS END for a little while wouldn't hurt, to start. All-Asia Heavyweight as the Ryouji Sai belt for now while the All-Asia Tag Team can go back and forth between LANDS END regulars and AJPW freelancers on LANDS END shows.

Use the GAORA title as the "freelancers can hold this" title instead of the Jun Akiyama belt would help. He's held it for over a year now with eight defenses, but you wouldn't know it given how much other stuff he for the company. His last defense was in a six man tag team match, for goodness sake. A run for a KAI or a Naoya Nomura wouldn't be terrible. It's insane to think that Yohei Nakajima is the wrestler most identified with this championship, and I actually like Nakajima. And does Akiyama really need two belts at this point?

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:19 pm
by PKThree
Danwaka wrote:
PKThree wrote:It's a downside of having a small roster I guess.
Downside of AJPW having too many titles for so small a roster. We're at 2 AA titles, 3 World titles plus a GAORA title. And then there's the !BANG! title whenever Dory comes by for a tour. And of course, there's five yearly tournaments.

Passing the All-Asia titles to LANDS END for a little while wouldn't hurt, to start. All-Asia Heavyweight as the Ryouji Sai belt for now while the All-Asia Tag Team can go back and forth between LANDS END regulars and AJPW freelancers on LANDS END shows.

Use the GAORA title as the "freelancers can hold this" title instead of the Jun Akiyama belt would help. He's held it for over a year now with eight defenses, but you wouldn't know it given how much other stuff he for the company. His last defense was in a six man tag team match, for goodness sake. A run for a KAI or a Naoya Nomura wouldn't be terrible. It's insane to think that Yohei Nakajima is the wrestler most identified with this championship, and I actually like Nakajima. And does Akiyama really need two belts at this point?
TBF the AA heavyweight belt is the Land's End title. It is not part of AJPW proper but Sai gets to defend it if he so chooses.

I agree that the GAORA belt could be the freelancer title since Akiyama seems more focused on the asia tag belts right now.

As for the triple crown, I just crunched the numbers to see how Joe's recent reign stacked up.

There have been a total of 60 TC reigns. Of which 22 reigns went shorter than 100 days. 38 reigns went over 100 days and out of those 38 only 10 went over 300 days+. 5 of those epic lengths reigns came during the Mutoh years, 1in the Akiyama era so far (Kento's first run) and the remaining 4 back when Baba owned the company.

And out of those 60 reigns only 4 made it past 5 successful defences. So with 155 days and 3 successful defences Joe basically had as standard a run with the belt as you can get. The epic length runs stand out more obviously. But there definitely tends to be a fair amount of short and average length runs spaced out in between them to help make them stand out more.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:42 pm
by Danwaka
PKThree wrote:TBF the AA heavyweight belt is the Land's End title. It is not part of AJPW proper but Sai gets to defend it if he so chooses.
Give them the AA tag titles as well. Heck, Dylan and Ryouji taking the belts and defending them against mixes of AJPW freelancers while Akiyama/Nagata and Akiyama/Nagata and Omori/Nakanishi had some matches with the Big Guns would have been a fun change of pace.
There have been a total of 60 TC reigns. Of which 22 reigns went shorter than 100 days. 38 reigns went over 100 days and out of those 38 only 10 went over 300 days+. 5 of those epic lengths reigns came during the Mutoh years, 1in the Akiyama era so far (Kento's first run) and the remaining 4 back when Baba owned the company. And out of those 60 reigns only 4 made it past 5 successful defences. So with 155 days and 3 successful defenses Joe basically had as standard a run with the belt as you can get. The epic length runs stand out more obviously. But there definitely tends to be a fair amount of short and average length runs spaced out in between them to help make them stand out more.
It's not just the TC though. The tag scene has been a mess, which I know is not helped by all the injuries. But Baba only had to book 4 titles and had a much larger roster to do it with. Even Mutoh kept to the 4-title system until 2013. It's easier to have a lot of shorter title runs when there's less titles around, because a new champ or a title change stands out more. Until I actually looked, I hadn't realized Akiyama had a one-year run with the GAORA title, or that Big Guns were now 4-time world champs, or that Suwama has won the Real World Tag League every odd year since 2013.

The championships and the tournaments are starting to feel like props to me.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:06 pm
by PKThree
Danwaka wrote:
The championships and the tournaments are starting to feel like props to me.
Well it is wrestling so technically they are.
I get what you are saying but it is very much a catch 22. To retire belts or give them up is seen as failure. And if they book too many short runs they get flack for that, and if they run too many long runs they end up burning out the bigger matches.

The obvious answer is that they have to make their roster grow. And hopefully they are getting more and more into a position to do that by signing more talents to contracts. Jake and Yuma coming back from injury will help as well obviously.

The big thing that they need to do is look over their dojo system. Right now they are putting out one trainee per year on average, which compared to BJW, DDT, NJPW and DG is nowhere near good. Something needs to change in how they recruit and how they train their students so that they actually recruit more trainees and get more of them to finish training.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:36 pm
by Danwaka
PKThree wrote:
I get what you are saying but it is very much a catch 22. To retire belts or give them up is seen as failure. And if they book too many short runs they get flack for that, and if they run too many long runs they end up burning out the bigger matches.
Well LANDS END is PWF-approved, so it's not as bad as say BJW just taking the titles.
The obvious answer is that they have to make their roster grow. And hopefully they are getting more and more into a position to do that by signing more talents to contracts. Jake and Yuma coming back from injury will help as well obviously.
Even just rotating out their freelancers like they did years prior would help. Kotaro Suzuki is one thing. Pushing Ultimo Dragon and TAIJIRI in the junior division was just terrible. Definitely hopeful that more signings like Josh Bodom follow.
The big thing that they need to do is look over their dojo system. Right now they are putting out one trainee per year on average, which compared to BJW, DDT, NJPW and DG is nowhere near good. Something needs to change in how they recruit and how they train their students so that they actually recruit more trainees and get more of them to finish training.
Even Zero-1 has put out three new trainees this year. When even Zero-1 is chasing you with new young lions you're in trouble. :|

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:06 pm
by Dragonzombie
They're doing crash tv booking with the titles. So far their fans dont mind in Japan.

And in AJPW 80's there was more titles compared to AJPW 90's before the unifications.

As for the roster, they want more taller guys while the shorter guys stay in the junior division. Jun loves taller guys and so did Baba. Problem with most non AJPW Dojos these days they produce small guys either by size and weight. Jun also said wrestlers are getting smaller outside of AJPW and wants to avoid that. So it's a slower process, yet still better than what Noah was doing for years.

They seem to be signing one guy a year and debuting a rookie, so eventually  the contracted roster will be at 20. I guess they could push the younger guys in the hw divsion more faster but they're still too new. Plus excursions are a thing of the past for AJPW budget wise along with hiring bunch of Gaijin to fill up the roster slots.

It's obv they're booking the junior division to revolve around older juniors while their division is less flashy. Probably to avoid what happend to Noah.  Besides even in AJPW 90's the division wasn't treated as well as in Mutoh's era. Kondo did withheld his comment and said their division is strong though.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:27 pm
by Danwaka
Dragonzombie wrote: And in AJPW 80's there was more titles compared to AJPW 90's before the unifications.
I think you can agree that AJPW in the 80s was bigger roster-wise than now.
As for the roster, they want more taller guys while the shorter guys stay in the junior division. Jun loves taller guys and so did Baba. Problem with most non AJPW Dojos these days they produce small guys either by size and weight. Jun also said wrestlers are getting smaller outside of AJPW and wants to avoid that. So it's a slower process, yet still better than what Noah was doing for years.
Interesting. Makes me wonder about Kitamura in AJPW.
They seem to be signing one guy a year and debuting a rookie, so eventually  the contracted roster will be at 20. I guess they could push the younger guys in the hw divsion more faster but they're still too new. Plus excursions are a thing of the past for AJPW budget wise along with hiring bunch of Gaijin to fill up the roster slots.
They brought in Bodom just recently. I can't imagine bringing in more wrestlers like him to what is still a respectable territory (Japan) would break their bank any more than Atsushi Maruyama, TAIJIRI or Ultimo Dragon would. I mean, they just booked Kazuyuki Fujita with a stable. Fujita is obviously a relic, but how cheap a relic could he be?
It's obv they're booking the junior division to revolve around older juniors while their division is less flashy. Probably to avoid what happened to Noah.  Besides even in AJPW 90's the division wasn't treated as well as in Mutoh's era.
AJPW's 90s division was 4 to 6 people. And I'd take 90s Masanobu Fuchi or Yoshinari Ogawa over today's TAIJIRI. Plus, Mutoh didn't have a choice regarding juniors. It wasn't like Japan was just filled with heavyweights looking for jobs at the time.

And booking older juniors is fine, I've been frequent in-thread talking about the old Osaka Pro masked guys like Billy and Buffalo and doing more of a lucha style. But the division needs a little bit more sizzle than nostalgia alone. Mask and hair stips, for example.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:42 pm
by Dragonzombie
I think anyone knows most of the lower wrestling roster in wrestling is deadweight.

As for oversea guys, you're forgetting the expenses on hotels and air travel and etc. Plus Josh is just one guy who will be gone later. Voodoo murder had more gaijin and Mutoh overspent in expenses so much he paid workers in tickets.

The freelancers don't work all shows.

Mutoh only pushed juniors because that was a NJPW booking thing brought over. Meanwhile they pushed Tak, Kensuki, Kojima in the main.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:52 pm
by Danwaka
Dragonzombie wrote:I think anyone knows most of the lower wrestling roster in wrestling is deadweight.
Out of the big leagues, sure.
As for oversea guys, you're forgetting the expenses on hotels and air travel and etc. Plus Josh is just one guy who will be gone later. Voodoo murder had more gaijin and Mutoh overspent in expenses so much he paid workers in tickets.
Air travel, sure. Hotels would be the same as natives. And I'm not asking for a Baba or Mutoh level expenditure, but Ultimo Dragon lives in Mexico as far as I know. Yoshitatsu lives somewhere on the West Coast. Joe Doering is in North America. Dylan James is from New Zealand.
The freelancers don't work all shows.
And they use locals for a lot of the specials like Chiba and Yokohama. No reason they can't do more of what they did with Nakajima and groom locals for regular spots. NOAH's done a lot better job of that since 2013 with their indie guys turned juniors.
Mutoh only pushed juniors because that was a NJPW booking thing brought over. Meanwhile they pushed Tak, Kensuki, Kojima in the main.
Sasaki = NJPW product. Kojima = NJPW product. The guy didn't exactly have his pick of native heavies, so he booked gaijin heavies and ex-NJPW heavies while doing more juniors than Baba would have ever considered. Perfectly understandable given his limitations, but let's not pretend Mutoh was Riki Choshu. The dude was flexible and worked with what he had, and what he often didn't have was a deep native heavyweight roster.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:55 pm
by PKThree
Bodom is obviously there on a try out and if he impresses he will be brought back. Danny Jones said himself on Flash Morgan Webster's pod that they are working to bring him back some time this year but they need to work out a schedule that works and get the visa and such approved before they announce something. James is probably going to be a regular going forward because a: He's a big boy and b: He already lives in the country.

The roster will expand in time and if they get revamp the dojo to get more guys in then they will be fine.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:01 pm
by Dragonzombie
Danwaka wrote:
Dragonzombie wrote:I think anyone knows most of the lower wrestling roster in wrestling is deadweight.
Out of the big leagues, sure.
As for oversea guys, you're forgetting the expenses on hotels and air travel and etc. Plus Josh is just one guy who will be gone later. Voodoo murder had more gaijin and Mutoh overspent in expenses so much he paid workers in tickets.
Air travel, sure. Hotels would be the same as natives. And I'm not asking for a Baba or Mutoh level expenditure, but Ultimo Dragon lives in Mexico as far as I know. Yoshitatsu lives somewhere on the West Coast. Joe Doering is in North America. Dylan James is from New Zealand.
The freelancers don't work all shows.
And they use locals for a lot of the specials like Chiba and Yokohama. No reason they can't do more of what they did with Nakajima and groom locals for regular spots. NOAH's done a lot better job of that since 2013 with their indie guys turned juniors.
Mutoh only pushed juniors because that was a NJPW booking thing brought over. Meanwhile they pushed Tak, Kensuki, Kojima in the main.
Sasaki = NJPW product. Kojima = NJPW product. The guy didn't exactly have his pick of native heavies, so he booked gaijin heavies and ex-NJPW heavies while doing more juniors than Baba would have ever considered. Perfectly understandable given his limitations, but let's not pretend Mutoh was Riki Choshu. The dude was flexible and worked with what he had, and what he often didn't have was a deep native heavyweight roster.
Yoshitatsu pays for his own. Ultimo does as well.

Anyway if they went back to the Mutoh era way of so many guys, they won't make a profit as mentioned in Juns new book coming soon.

You're just gonna have to accept what they're are now until they grow. Even then it will never be what it was like from previous time periods. They shrank like the rest of the biz and had to. Also in Japan Juniors are cheaper and so are Indy guys to fill up Noahs super cheap roster.

They know what they're doing.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:20 pm
by Danwaka
Dragonzombie wrote:Yoshitatsu pays for his own. Ultimo does as well.
I keep forgetting you're deep into the Japanese side of puro stuff. How you know your airfare stuff though is something else, though.
Anyway if they went back to the Mutoh era way of so many guys, they won't make a profit as mentioned in Juns new book coming soon. You're just gonna have to accept what they're are now until they grow. Even then it will never be what it was like from previous time periods. They shrank like the rest of the biz and had to.
Again, wasn't asking for Mutoh expenditure or Baba mega-rosters. Just less 40+ year olds from match 1 to match 6 and more importance on champions and title changes.
Also in Japan Juniors are cheaper and so are Indy guys to fill up Noahs super cheap roster.
And the reason not to use them as opposed to AJPW's "old lion" division?
They know what they're doing.
If AJPW wasn't doing well, I wouldn't be following it because it'd be dead in 2013 or 2015 when shit hit the fan. Just because I'm voicing concerns regarding booking and signings doesn't mean Vince Russo's snuck across the Pacific.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:44 pm
by Dragonzombie
Danwaka wrote:
Dragonzombie wrote:Yoshitatsu pays for his own. Ultimo does as well.
I keep forgetting you're deep into the Japanese side of puro stuff. How you know your airfare stuff though is something else, though.
Anyway if they went back to the Mutoh era way of so many guys, they won't make a profit as mentioned in Juns new book coming soon. You're just gonna have to accept what they're are now until they grow. Even then it will never be what it was like from previous time periods. They shrank like the rest of the biz and had to.
Again, wasn't asking for Mutoh expenditure or Baba mega-rosters. Just less 40+ year olds from match 1 to match 6 and more importance on champions and title changes.
Also in Japan Juniors are cheaper and so are Indy guys to fill up Noahs super cheap roster.
And the reason not to use them as opposed to AJPW's "old lion" division?
They know what they're doing.
If AJPW wasn't doing well, I wouldn't be following it because it'd be dead in 2013 or 2015 when shit hit the fan. Just because I'm voicing concerns regarding booking and signings doesn't mean Vince Russo's snuck across the Pacific.
I know for one they don't want the juniors out working the Hws. It's obv with the booking and hiring they're doing that on purpose.

The reason for not doing much of what Noah does is simply preferring dojo guys. They did however hire some from outside but they're selective. Jun hires grapplers or shoot or less flashy guys for Juniors.

There isn't that many Indy big guys like Zeus or Shuji as well. Well ones that aren't NJPW or AJPW former guys.

Most information is in Japan..books, blogs, wrestlers, interviews and learning from there.

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:00 pm
by PKThree
Iwamoto beat Keichii Sato today at Shin Kiba and post match asked Keichii how long he was going to stay in Kotaro Suzuki's shadow. Then we got Josh Bodom challenging for the junior belt with Aoki accepting it under the condition that he earn it during the rest of the tour.

And then Zeus picked up the win in the big Champion carnival multi-man tag main event by pinning Kento. He then declared that his goal was winning the carnival and challenging for the belt

Re: King's Road - The All Japan Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:38 pm
by RolandGunner
PKThree wrote: And then Zeus picked up the win in the big Champion carnival multi-man tag main event by pinning Kento. He then declared that his goal was winning the carnival and challenging for the belt
Having Kento take the pin the first match after winning the TC seems very weird to me.