Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

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Buzz Sawyer
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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Buzz Sawyer » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:33 pm

People act that wrestling didn't exist before 1981. Just because someone created a star system means jack-poo in who the greatest of all time is. If Meltzer newsletter was around when Johnny Valentine was at his best, Meltzer would be suck his cock, just as he does Young Bucks/Omega.
Who's Rob Viper ?

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Buzz Sawyer
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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Buzz Sawyer » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:34 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
Buzz Sawyer wrote:Johnny FUCKING Valentine says hi.
Glad to know he reads the site. I thought the whole "being dead" thing would get in the way but good to know.

Let him know we said hello as well!
He told me that Okada, while great, couldn't hold his jock. Okada could be his young boy if he wanted to and could learn at the feet of the master.
Who's Rob Viper ?

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BoxingRobes
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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:02 pm

aivaz wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote: Have any of you written an essay in your life? College educated? I've presented my thesis and I've provided ONE piece of supporting evidence to support it. Of course I think he's the greatest ever. That is why I am making this post. But there is a huge difference in the discussion with me stating it as an opinion and trying to use empirical data to help support my claim.
Dave Meltzer ratings are supporting evidence for your hypothesis about as much as the average July temperature in Sevilla supports my hypothesis that July is the best month of the year. If I did that I would be presenting an impossible argument for which I have one source, which is only relevant on the loaded assumption that Sevilla is important, and the best month equals the hottest, with temperatures around 35 degrees celsius. Neither of these arguments are the foundation for a good essay, or a demonstration of a college education, they don't even make sense. It's the framework of a tedious and boring discussion, and so this thread is. I would have better luck with my racist grandma after reading the tabloids.

Also, your supporting evidence is the five star system of a man who just rated a match six and a quarter stars. He is either deliberately taking the piss out of people who inflate the importance of his ratings, or has unintentionally made it impossible to take seriously.
Strange, because the cagematch ratings corroborate the thesis, too.

I'm open to seeing other forms empirical evidence to support or even refute the OP. However, your post is a veiled "Dave sucks" post. Thanks.

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throwstuff165
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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by throwstuff165 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:16 pm

Just throwing in my two cents in case this thread still exists in 20 years and people are looking back on it.

Okada is my favorite wrestler and has been for some time, but I don't think I'm ready to call him the absolute GOAT. I do, however, have confidence that by the end of his career, I will be.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by mlev76 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:26 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:Even, still

% of scores over a 8.00 on the cagematch scale. The equal of a ****, I suppose...although plenty of matches in the 7 range are **** or better, but hey, we're taking this dataset.

Okada 45/146 - 31%
Misawa 48/264 -18%
Danielson 80/252 - 32%
Flair 22/114 - 19%

I could probably make a point about those Danielson matches but numbers are numbers and still Okada is much better then all but Danielson and look how close it is.

Thanks for being the first person to bring something else to the table.
My main point is with regard to Flair since I believe there are many missing matches not factored into this database. I mean, look at some of the career stats during his peak years during the 80s. There are tons of missing matches. Furthermore, the amount of matches that were televised especially the big show matches, in the 80s is miniscule compared to today. So, in reality, empirical comparison may be completely impossible.

Which brings us back to what realistically is the best gauge-opinions of people who've seen both and who can compare and contrast.
Here's the thing, you are proposing (either stated or not explicitly) that there is an unknown number of Ric Flair matches that would make him an overwhelming favorite in this discussion.

I'm willing to go as high as doubling Flair's numbers right now (while not assuming an unknown number of unqualified matches), and his raw numbers are still going to fall short of Okada, if they don't already.

I'm doing the same for Danielson as well, and while Danielson comes a long way in the discussion, its still Okada with some inordinate amount of matches for such a short period. This is what Mobb is ultimately trying to explain. We can go a long way in making exceptions and new rules for some of the unknowns of this discussion, but my lord, we don't need to make any leaps for Okada and he's still right there...and he's only 29 years old.
It's less that there are unknown matches and more there are plenty of unrated/untelevised matches. Let's even assume, which I don't but will for this exercise, that over the same period of time, Okada would have the same number of great matches as Flair did. At this point, only five years into his true breakthrough run, on a cumulative total basis, it wouldn't come close.

Flair was a big star in Mid Atlantic, a huge territory for the better part of the late seventies. He was the last true long term touring NWA champion during the 80s. He was a 10x WCW and WWF champion in the 90s. And during the 00s, he would have at least a handful of great matches every year until his retirement in 2008. Thing of any great wrestler from the mid seventies until the late aughts and there's a better than average chance that he had a great match with them.

Okada is not there yet. Quantify or qualify that however you like.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:22 pm

mlev76 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
My main point is with regard to Flair since I believe there are many missing matches not factored into this database. I mean, look at some of the career stats during his peak years during the 80s. There are tons of missing matches. Furthermore, the amount of matches that were televised especially the big show matches, in the 80s is miniscule compared to today. So, in reality, empirical comparison may be completely impossible.

Which brings us back to what realistically is the best gauge-opinions of people who've seen both and who can compare and contrast.
Here's the thing, you are proposing (either stated or not explicitly) that there is an unknown number of Ric Flair matches that would make him an overwhelming favorite in this discussion.

I'm willing to go as high as doubling Flair's numbers right now (while not assuming an unknown number of unqualified matches), and his raw numbers are still going to fall short of Okada, if they don't already.

I'm doing the same for Danielson as well, and while Danielson comes a long way in the discussion, its still Okada with some inordinate amount of matches for such a short period. This is what Mobb is ultimately trying to explain. We can go a long way in making exceptions and new rules for some of the unknowns of this discussion, but my lord, we don't need to make any leaps for Okada and he's still right there...and he's only 29 years old.
It's less that there are unknown matches and more there are plenty of unrated/untelevised matches. Let's even assume, which I don't but will for this exercise, that over the same period of time, Okada would have the same number of great matches as Flair did. At this point, only five years into his true breakthrough run, on a cumulative total basis, it wouldn't come close.

Flair was a big star in Mid Atlantic, a huge territory for the better part of the late seventies. He was the last true long term touring NWA champion during the 80s. He was a 10x WCW and WWF champion in the 90s. And during the 00s, he would have at least a handful of great matches every year until his retirement in 2008. Thing of any great wrestler from the mid seventies until the late aughts and there's a better than average chance that he had a great match with them.

Okada is not there yet. Quantify or qualify that however you like.
I think you are completely overshooting how much great-Flair was available after the mid-90s. I also think you're overestimating the "greatness" of the unrated/untelevised matches Flair would have, too. I'd be willing to budge and give him credit for a lot of matches that are essentially unknowns, but I think you're buying in way too much to the legend and in a discussion that asks to quantify this stuff, you're bringing in a lot of unquantifiable conjecture to the topic.

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LK3185
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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by LK3185 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:19 pm

I do lean on the side of longevity in these discussions because being great your whole career, even into your 40s without your body breaking down is really impressive to me. Flair while he didn't have 5 star matches in the 2000s, still had some really good matches that evoked an emotion and he was over 50 at that point. I dont think at Okada's pace, he'll be able to have great matches at that age, probably be retired.. Look at Tanahashi, he's 40 and breaking down even though he can still do his thing (I'd rank him over Okada right now.)

Not really related but in my wrestling PPV database, I'm up to Summerslam 2007 but i watched all of the TNA PPVS before that, and Angle is at about 45 Match of the nights... AJ Styles is about the same, if I include the AJ run from Japan, everything he can do in the ring, I can honestly say AJ Styles is one of the best wrestlers i've ever seen

Okada too but again, he might fall off after 30 and not work as hard alot of different factors.

15 years from now if Okada is still on top, then I have to think he'll be at minimum top 5 wrestler ever by most people.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by mlev76 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:23 am

BoxingRobes wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:
Here's the thing, you are proposing (either stated or not explicitly) that there is an unknown number of Ric Flair matches that would make him an overwhelming favorite in this discussion.

I'm willing to go as high as doubling Flair's numbers right now (while not assuming an unknown number of unqualified matches), and his raw numbers are still going to fall short of Okada, if they don't already.

I'm doing the same for Danielson as well, and while Danielson comes a long way in the discussion, its still Okada with some inordinate amount of matches for such a short period. This is what Mobb is ultimately trying to explain. We can go a long way in making exceptions and new rules for some of the unknowns of this discussion, but my lord, we don't need to make any leaps for Okada and he's still right there...and he's only 29 years old.
It's less that there are unknown matches and more there are plenty of unrated/untelevised matches. Let's even assume, which I don't but will for this exercise, that over the same period of time, Okada would have the same number of great matches as Flair did. At this point, only five years into his true breakthrough run, on a cumulative total basis, it wouldn't come close.

Flair was a big star in Mid Atlantic, a huge territory for the better part of the late seventies. He was the last true long term touring NWA champion during the 80s. He was a 10x WCW and WWF champion in the 90s. And during the 00s, he would have at least a handful of great matches every year until his retirement in 2008. Thing of any great wrestler from the mid seventies until the late aughts and there's a better than average chance that he had a great match with them.

Okada is not there yet. Quantify or qualify that however you like.
I think you are completely overshooting how much great-Flair was available after the mid-90s. I also think you're overestimating the "greatness" of the unrated/untelevised matches Flair would have, too. I'd be willing to budge and give him credit for a lot of matches that are essentially unknowns, but I think you're buying in way too much to the legend and in a discussion that asks to quantify this stuff, you're bringing in a lot of unquantifiable conjecture to the topic.
Opinions are unquantifiable. I've stated as much throughout this discussion. Having a large amount of highly rated matches in a short period of time where everything is readily available and reviewable alone does not make you the best. I have watched far more Flair than Okada simply by the fact that Flair was a part of my present viewing experience for 20+years while Okada has been around for about 5. Right now, I say Flair.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Alan4L » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:40 am

Buzz Sawyer wrote:Johnny FUCKING Valentine says hi.
My fave post in this thread so far and there's alot of good ones!

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Alan4L » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:52 am

15 months ago, I had him at #43 which I'll admit I was probably being conservative on. Now I'm like fuck being conservative! With the run he's had in the last 15 months (the Naito matches, the LIJ/CHAOS tags, the Ishii matches, the Maru series, the Tanahashi draw, the Omega stuff, Shibata, TMW, Suzuki) I'm comfortable saying he's powered forward into the top 10. Plus, not just the matches but the storytelling he's weaved together between them with amazing facial expressions and acting, it's just marvellous.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:03 am

mlev76 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
It's less that there are unknown matches and more there are plenty of unrated/untelevised matches. Let's even assume, which I don't but will for this exercise, that over the same period of time, Okada would have the same number of great matches as Flair did. At this point, only five years into his true breakthrough run, on a cumulative total basis, it wouldn't come close.

Flair was a big star in Mid Atlantic, a huge territory for the better part of the late seventies. He was the last true long term touring NWA champion during the 80s. He was a 10x WCW and WWF champion in the 90s. And during the 00s, he would have at least a handful of great matches every year until his retirement in 2008. Thing of any great wrestler from the mid seventies until the late aughts and there's a better than average chance that he had a great match with them.

Okada is not there yet. Quantify or qualify that however you like.
I think you are completely overshooting how much great-Flair was available after the mid-90s. I also think you're overestimating the "greatness" of the unrated/untelevised matches Flair would have, too. I'd be willing to budge and give him credit for a lot of matches that are essentially unknowns, but I think you're buying in way too much to the legend and in a discussion that asks to quantify this stuff, you're bringing in a lot of unquantifiable conjecture to the topic.
Opinions are unquantifiable. I've stated as much throughout this discussion. Having a large amount of highly rated matches in a short period of time where everything is readily available and reviewable alone does not make you the best. I have watched far more Flair than Okada simply by the fact that Flair was a part of my present viewing experience for 20+years while Okada has been around for about 5. Right now, I say Flair.
Wait...what?

You must not have thought that out too well, brother mlev. Qualitative research.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by JML » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:09 pm

All that I've learned from this thread is that wrestling needs a review aggregator. Cagematch is nice thing to have but the ratings are user based and only list the Meltzer ratings. Would like to see a site to basically copy Metacritic's model and apply it to wrestling.


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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by mlev76 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:53 pm

JML wrote:All that I've learned from this thread is that wrestling needs a review aggregator. Cagematch is nice thing to have but the ratings are user based and only list the Meltzer ratings. Would like to see a site to basically copy Metacritic's model and apply it to wrestling.


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This is a great idea. I consider Dave's ratings, but I generally rely on others to point out matches I should watch since he's limited mostly to WWE, NJPW and bits of other groups here and there.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by mlev76 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:55 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:
I think you are completely overshooting how much great-Flair was available after the mid-90s. I also think you're overestimating the "greatness" of the unrated/untelevised matches Flair would have, too. I'd be willing to budge and give him credit for a lot of matches that are essentially unknowns, but I think you're buying in way too much to the legend and in a discussion that asks to quantify this stuff, you're bringing in a lot of unquantifiable conjecture to the topic.
Opinions are unquantifiable. I've stated as much throughout this discussion. Having a large amount of highly rated matches in a short period of time where everything is readily available and reviewable alone does not make you the best. I have watched far more Flair than Okada simply by the fact that Flair was a part of my present viewing experience for 20+years while Okada has been around for about 5. Right now, I say Flair.
Wait...what?

You must not have thought that out too well, brother mlev. Qualitative research.
I am fairly confident if I had the time (don't) and the desire (sure would be fun) to do so, I could make the case of Flair over Okada as it now stands pretty easily. Perhaps when the former becomes less of an issue (likely when my children are grown and out of the house, so by which time Okada may have made this argument moot) I will.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:47 am

Six Months later...

This take is still accurate.

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