Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Talk Puro, Lucha, Europe and "I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/CARIBBEAN/AFRICA"
User avatar
saviorofstrongstyle
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:16 am

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by saviorofstrongstyle » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:16 pm

This thread makes me wish this forum had a "like" button for posts because I'm conditioned to want to click like on stuff.

User avatar
soup23
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by soup23 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:19 pm

Who else in wrestling do you place within that authority? How many years of reviewing matches do you have to account for before you reach that echelon?

User avatar
rollup
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:02 am
Location: Asia

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by rollup » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:29 pm

While i do not think that Okada is the GOAT and that star ratings from Big Dave shouldn't be a factor on deciding if he is the Goat , i do think Okada has already a catalogue of matches that will stand the test of time and he will always be in the conversation. And there's more matches to come !

User avatar
PKThree
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:34 pm
Location: Cold frozen north

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by PKThree » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:34 pm

This thread needs to be frozen in carbonite and placed in a museum to showcase all the online dick measuring.

Relax folks.

User avatar
BoxingRobes
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:02 pm

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:34 pm

soup23 wrote:Who else in wrestling do you place within that authority? How many years of reviewing matches do you have to account for before you reach that echelon?
The problem is, for THIS discussion when we are trying to compare a wrestler in 2017 to wrestlers in the early 90s and the 80s...there really isn't any.

Now we can spend another 3 forum pages discussing why Dave sucks or that there are hundreds or even THOUSANDS (sorry mlev, but that statement was ridiculous, b) of unrated matches that would qualify Ric Flair or Bryan Danielson to a status beyond this discussion...or...we could actually start discussing the merits of Okada as an all-time great singles worker right now from, generally, an empirical perspective. Clearly, he's the GOAT is my opinion. I'm trying to actually quantify his GOATness with actual figures. WON star rankings. I've thrown in cagematch figures for another dataset, but clearly, these figures come with a ton of flaws as do Daves...all of this is limited, but, its what we got, and what we have says...he's pretty much the best in a short period of time. We can forecast what lies ahead, too, but for fucks sake can we get away from bashing Dave or throwing in unquantifiable statements out there.

I'm more interested in hearing opinions why people are willing to pump the brakes on such an obvious All-Timer other then just accepting the takes and enjoying the ride. Would also like to see a splinter discussion for the All-Timey-ness of ACE with his ridiculous number of great matches in a short period of time. I've seen people bash Dave for what is seeming ages...I'm kind of over it and every time you bring anything involving WON into a discussion, it turns into a bash Dave and trash Dave session, instead of focusing on the point. Maybe its because ya'll have had too much interaction with Dave directly over the years, idk.

User avatar
soup23
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by soup23 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:44 pm

I haven't BASHED Dave in any of my sentiments so far. I just think it is obtuse that he is being used as the sole metric. If you want to compare a worker from 2017 to the 90's and 80's, I think Phil Schneider fits the bill as you can find reviews online for 20+ years.

I am all for discussing the inns and outs of Okada as a worker from a subjective standpoint comparing selling, offense, aura, etc to other key nominess, but this thread hasn't been designed to accomplish that and there still is a digging in the sand of quantifying Okada as the GOAT based on one man's ratings which you are so far the only person that is claiming that is a rational method of analysis.

User avatar
mlev76
Posts: 2571
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:32 pm
Location: New York, New York
Contact:

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by mlev76 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:44 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:
All of that is great but its YOUR opinion, not what albums are critically acclaimed. If you're going to make a stance for other films...what datapoints are using to back it up other then, its like your opinion, man. FWIW, Pet Sounds is #2 on the list. lol. If you look at Pitchfork versus Rolling Stone...Pitchfork has been around for 20 years, Rolling Stone for 50(!!). It would be the equivalent of saying "Okada has 60 matches rated **** or better on VoicesOfWrestling, but 0 for Misawa."

The issue here, is, Dave IS the only game in town with historical content. But ffs, I really don't want to make this a Dave thread, as it takes away from it being a OKADA thread. Everything else is hindsight. I compare Dave to Mel Kiper in many ways. Yeah...there is a lot inherent flaws with using him as a datapoint, but really, when you want to make statements about which prospects are the highest rated of all time...you've only got one throughline, and its Kiper. Or...in this instance, its Dave.
Dave's opinions are still just that.They're not raw data and cannot be claimed to be such to counter a claim that you perceive to be opinions.

This is your opinion, not fact.
An opinion by an authority is valid. And, of course they can be considered raw data for a discussion. The same can be said for things like film. The Godfather is a great film. Roger Ebert gave it four stars. You'd use that in a discussion of Godfather's greatness, because Roger Ebert is a long standing authority on film.

User avatar
mlev76
Posts: 2571
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:32 pm
Location: New York, New York
Contact:

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by mlev76 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:44 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:
All of that is great but its YOUR opinion, not what albums are critically acclaimed. If you're going to make a stance for other films...what datapoints are using to back it up other then, its like your opinion, man. FWIW, Pet Sounds is #2 on the list. lol. If you look at Pitchfork versus Rolling Stone...Pitchfork has been around for 20 years, Rolling Stone for 50(!!). It would be the equivalent of saying "Okada has 60 matches rated **** or better on VoicesOfWrestling, but 0 for Misawa."

The issue here, is, Dave IS the only game in town with historical content. But ffs, I really don't want to make this a Dave thread, as it takes away from it being a OKADA thread. Everything else is hindsight. I compare Dave to Mel Kiper in many ways. Yeah...there is a lot inherent flaws with using him as a datapoint, but really, when you want to make statements about which prospects are the highest rated of all time...you've only got one throughline, and its Kiper. Or...in this instance, its Dave.
Dave's opinions are still just that.They're not raw data and cannot be claimed to be such to counter a claim that you perceive to be opinions.

This is your opinion, not fact.
An opinion by an authority is valid. And, of course they can be considered raw data for a discussion. The same can be said for things like film. The Godfather is a great film. Roger Ebert gave it four stars. You'd use that in a discussion of Godfather's greatness, because Roger Ebert is a long standing authority on film.
It still remains opinion. You can't win or lose a star rating by some definable characteristic. And not everyone will agree with Dave, Roger Ebert or anyone. This is not an insult to these men, but in the end, they cast their opinions as such and not as definitive statements of fact.

And you're correct that Dave saying Okada had a lot of great matches makes him worthy of discussion. But, other factors exist that can and should be considered beyond simple star ratings from one person no matter how respected.

User avatar
BoxingRobes
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:02 pm

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:54 pm

mlev76 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
Dave's opinions are still just that.They're not raw data and cannot be claimed to be such to counter a claim that you perceive to be opinions.

This is your opinion, not fact.
An opinion by an authority is valid. And, of course they can be considered raw data for a discussion. The same can be said for things like film. The Godfather is a great film. Roger Ebert gave it four stars. You'd use that in a discussion of Godfather's greatness, because Roger Ebert is a long standing authority on film.
It still remains opinion. You can't win or lose a star rating by some definable characteristic. And not everyone will agree with Dave, Roger Ebert or anyone. This is not an insult to these men, but in the end, they cast their opinions as such and not as definitive statements of fact.

And you're correct that Dave saying Okada had a lot of great matches makes him worthy of discussion. But, other factors exist that can and should be considered beyond simple star ratings from one person no matter how respected.
I'd love to see more empirical data that would help support or refute the discussion. However, no offense, no one has posted anything. No one has actually said anything that states why, empirically, Okada isn't the best yet. Hell, I'm the only one that has mentioned cagematch (which at least aggregates some match ratings and provides SOMETHING) of all places as a source, which, too, puts Okada right in the discussion as greatest among the sea of inactive wrestlers that currently hold the mantle.

Of course, simply using Roger Ebert as an example is not the best way to make a point, but when you couple HIM with dozens of other long time professional critics and their raw scores, ehhh, you can start to say something is critically the best ever. Unfortunately, for wrestling, there isn't dozens of others with the cache, there is really only one. In 10 years, with sites like VoW and guys who log their rankings and post them for historical purposes like Alan and some of the dudes on other sites, maybe we can expand the discussion in the future.

User avatar
GOTNW
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:27 pm

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by GOTNW » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:00 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
soup23 wrote:Who else in wrestling do you place within that authority? How many years of reviewing matches do you have to account for before you reach that echelon?
The problem is, for THIS discussion when we are trying to compare a wrestler in 2017 to wrestlers in the early 90s and the 80s...there really isn't any.

Now we can spend another 3 forum pages discussing why Dave sucks or that there are hundreds or even THOUSANDS (sorry mlev, but that statement was ridiculous, b) of unrated matches that would qualify Ric Flair or Bryan Danielson to a status beyond this discussion...or...we could actually start discussing the merits of Okada as an all-time great singles worker right now from, generally, an empirical perspective. Clearly, he's the GOAT is my opinion. I'm trying to actually quantify his GOATness with actual figures. WON star rankings. I've thrown in cagematch figures for another dataset, but clearly, these figures come with a ton of flaws as do Daves...all of this is limited, but, its what we got, and what we have says...he's pretty much the best in a short period of time. We can forecast what lies ahead, too, but for fucks sake can we get away from bashing Dave or throwing in unquantifiable statements out there.

I'm more interested in hearing opinions why people are willing to pump the brakes on such an obvious All-Timer other then just accepting the takes and enjoying the ride. Would also like to see a splinter discussion for the All-Timey-ness of ACE with his ridiculous number of great matches in a short period of time. I've seen people bash Dave for what is seeming ages...I'm kind of over it and every time you bring anything involving WON into a discussion, it turns into a bash Dave and trash Dave session, instead of focusing on the point. Maybe its because ya'll have had too much interaction with Dave directly over the years, idk.
I really love how wrestling fans have, in a world where everyone knows not just that it's a work, but how it operates in almost every aspect, become marks again by dancing around Metlzer as their grand wizard. It is a different type of admiration-whereas as a child you are attracted to colours, an outfit, a theme song and a cool finisher of a wrestler, you start to like wrestling less and less as you change and clinge to the wrestling of your youth as the scene of true greatness. But whereas a lot of people either turn into casuals or stop watching altogether, a certain number of fans feels an itch to not give up....maybe wrestling is too big of a part of their lives for them to give it up. Maybe they see they do still enjoy it but something's just not right. And therein comes Big Dave, like a wiseman or a shepard from a foreign land. "Where to, good sir?" "To the land of fighting spirit. To the land where you can watch a show a month most of the time and be in the know. A land where you can say "you don't understand the culture, it's different here" and be done instead of engaging in petty arguments. To the land of Japan, New Japan". And so he is followed, because he knows "what's really going on", because he offers metrics, reason. historical comparisons. Because he's always been doing it. Because there's no one like him.

User avatar
BoxingRobes
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:02 pm

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:02 pm

@LANZA. I see you subtweeting this topic all day. Get yer ass in this thread and lets discuss this MM style. Tell me why Okada isn't better ALL TIME then your #1 KENTA (not Kobashi).

User avatar
Rich Kraetsch
Site Admin
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:12 pm
Location: Wheaton, IL
Contact:

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:09 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
Rich Kraetsch wrote:As far as the larger topic at hand. I'm not ready to anoint him there yet. Is he on a trajectory and a path to become that? Absolutely. But right now, if he retired tomorrow, he's not the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling. He's just not. There's too many other guys with too lengthy of resumes for me to put him in that slot right now.

You can argue with the amount of top-tier matches he should be there but as others have said, using Dave's ratings as a barometer has flaws. Dave doesn't watch everything and thus it's not a fair 1:1 comparison and in now way does the raw # of X star matches tell a full tale of someone's career. Does it help enhance it? No doubt. Dave has created enough cache with his ratings that a case can be made # of X star matches is a resume builder but it's not THE resume (if that makes sense).

He's on the path. Absolutely. He's in the conversation. I'd like some more time though before we officially crown him.
Rich has the GOAT equivalent of the FIVE STAR FEAR.

Rich...or BROTHER FED...you, of all people, want to give him the crown. I know you do. DO NOT BE SCARED. When you discuss this topic on the POD next week, tag me in, I'll take on foreign heel LANZA.

Especially being a basketball guy, I know you know this discussion too often when the oldheads refuse to acknowledge the greatness in front of them until its too late and they are already late to the party. Don't be that guy, Rich.
Oh, don't get it twisted. I want Okada to be the greatest singles wrestling ever. he's a guy that from the moment I saw him I thought he was going to be a star. I've followed his career closely since and this website exists how it does in large part because of him. I'm just not ready to say unequivocally that he's there yet.

He's 100% on the path towards it but he's not even 30 yet. This won't happen but in a gigantic what if, what if he gets super lazy and ends up being a drag for the last half of his career. That will have a negative effect on how we think of him all-time, whether fair or not. Again, that's probably NOT going to happen but as I do with WON HOF discussion, I like to see a guy's career most of the way through before I give them the highest honors.

User avatar
Rich Kraetsch
Site Admin
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:12 pm
Location: Wheaton, IL
Contact:

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:11 pm

There also lies the issue in how you define "the greatest".

I'm an in-ring guy so for me, I throw out drawing power, big moments, etc. and instead focus on what they did between the ropes. However, someone else may not think "greatest" is "guy who has a high number of good matches" and may think it has other factors. Okada IS putting together a complete resume so it may be a feather in his cap when it's all said and done but we're under the assumption that "greatest" in wrestling has a singular definition when of course, that's not the case.

User avatar
BoxingRobes
VOW Staff Member
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:02 pm

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:20 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:There also lies the issue in how you define "the greatest".

I'm an in-ring guy so for me, I throw out drawing power, big moments, etc. and instead focus on what they did between the ropes. However, someone else may not think "greatest" is "guy who has a high number of good matches" and may think it has other factors. Okada IS putting together a complete resume so it may be a feather in his cap when it's all said and done but we're under the assumption that "greatest" in wrestling has a singular definition when of course, that's not the case.
I said "wrestler"...so I would hope I'm clearly defining it from an in-ring perspective, but you are right, I think Okada is putting together a complete resume.

User avatar
Buzz Sawyer
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:42 pm

Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Buzz Sawyer » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:45 pm

Johnny FUCKING Valentine says hi.
Who's Rob Viper ?

Post Reply