Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

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BoxingRobes
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Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:20 am

I'm not going to make this a long winded post. Just going to post some figures to make my point.

Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Image

No wrestler has amassed more **** matches or better in their career. He will likely have more five star matches before the end of the first weekend of 2018, if not sooner. He is only 29 years old. He could retire tomorrow, and be the GOAT.

This is a public service announcement for the masses to appreciate what in the hell you are watching in New Japan right now. This is imperfect, but what Okada is doing is next level shit and he's been doing it for years now. He is Jordan, he is LeBron, he is Tom Brady, he is Wayne Gretzky, he is Babe Ruth.

A few methodology FAQs...

I'm using WON ratings. Why? Really, Dave is the only universal match rater that has been around since the Stone Age. While this is imperfect, its really all we have to quantify historical match quality. Yeah...I got my numbers from cagematch.

I only used a few wrestlers that I personally feel are considered of the best of all time that would stack up with Okada. Are there others that could be mentioned? Sure. They wouldn't beat Okada's numbers anyway, so who cares?

For star ratings...I only used singles matches. Why? Once you open it up to tag matches, multi-man tags, multi-man type matches, WarGames matches, etc. it just throws off methodology because this is really where you can start nitpicking what was going on in eras and in different companies and honestly, I'm too lazy to get into that discussion or that research. Era adjusted numbers have no real importance to the point anyway. SIngles, one v. one type matches are a universal component to wrestling regardless of era. I used "RAW Total" to help separate singles matches from the other types of matches that would be on each guys resume. RAW Total is singles, plus all others.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by King Of Indy Style » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:27 am

I wouldn't say Okada's the greatest yet, but by the time he retires, which may be another 15-20 years (holy fuck) if he's able to stay healthy, he'll certainly be among the greatest ever. It always gets me that Okada has this psychotic catalog of amazing matches, and he's still 3-5 years away from when most wrestlers hit their prime in their early-mid thirties will only add more fuel to Okada's Greatest Ever case.
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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:17 am

I 100% believe he's the best of this era, and I also believe that when he's in his thirties, the exact phrasing of this thread will be many people's opinion. He is absolutely doing next level shit, beyond the numbers and star ratings, the pacing and storytelling of his matches and nuances of it...no one else does what he does. And we should appreciate every moment of it.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Alan4L » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:18 pm

He's blitzed past everyone in terms of great match quantity. It's becoming beyond comparison now.

The things that he's still competing with past legends like Tenryu, Misawa, Kobashi, Liger etc are more aura, moments, creating heat and other intangible things like that. As he gets older it will be interesting to see how he compares in those categories.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by soup23 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:20 pm

Using star ratings as a marker is not a great barometer in general. Using Dave is especially egregious. He has seen and ranked almost all of Okada's big matches. How many ROH 2006 shows got the star rating treatment and coverage in the Observer from Dave? Not many from the shows I scanned on cagematch. That isn't even taking into account Danielson's output elsewhere in FIP, PWG pre Dave attending, IWA-MS, etc.

The comps to Misawa and Kobashi are probably the closest and most fair as Dave was regularly reviewing tv matches that were happening on AJ tv rundowns in the 90's.

As far as Okada is concerned, his big matches this year have all been ranked well by me (****+ for both Omega, Suzuki, Ibushi, Shibata). While I rank the Shibata match as the only classic, I am well aware that is a minority opinion. Still, declaring him the greatest wrestler ever or year ever feels short sighted when you can look at something like Kobashi's 1993. The back half of 1993 for Kenta had the Hansen singles match, Doc match, Kobashi October match and RWTL.

Even Misawa in 1993 has the two Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue tags, the Kawada Carnival singles and TC match in July, a Carnival final with Hansen that has been really underated over the years as well as the 5/93 Hansen match that is usually pointed to as their best together, a very good to great match vs Taue on 2/28 where Misawa is clearly in control, A doc title defense in Sept that is very good.

So while Okada by most metrics is having a big year in the big matches, there is a bit of hyperbole that is alluding from some in regards to where he ranks as an all timer. The Fale match in particular was not very good and should be used as a negative for any argument in Okada's output for 2017. Maybe he will have 10+ more great years of high quality output. You could look at Kobashi at age 30 in 1997 and say the same thing until his body started to betray him and he was forced to adapt to continuing bringing quality matches to the table. Will Okada's body betray him? Will he be able to adapt as quickly as others when that time inevitably comes? These are strawman questions that are impossible to answer right now.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:12 pm

soup23 wrote:Using star ratings as a marker is not a great barometer in general. Using Dave is especially egregious. He has seen and ranked almost all of Okada's big matches. How many ROH 2006 shows got the star rating treatment and coverage in the Observer from Dave? Not many from the shows I scanned on cagematch. That isn't even taking into account Danielson's output elsewhere in FIP, PWG pre Dave attending, IWA-MS, etc.

The comps to Misawa and Kobashi are probably the closest and most fair as Dave was regularly reviewing tv matches that were happening on AJ tv rundowns in the 90's.

As far as Okada is concerned, his big matches this year have all been ranked well by me (****+ for both Omega, Suzuki, Ibushi, Shibata). While I rank the Shibata match as the only classic, I am well aware that is a minority opinion. Still, declaring him the greatest wrestler ever or year ever feels short sighted when you can look at something like Kobashi's 1993. The back half of 1993 for Kenta had the Hansen singles match, Doc match, Kobashi October match and RWTL.

Even Misawa in 1993 has the two Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue tags, the Kawada Carnival singles and TC match in July, a Carnival final with Hansen that has been really underated over the years as well as the 5/93 Hansen match that is usually pointed to as their best together, a very good to great match vs Taue on 2/28 where Misawa is clearly in control, A doc title defense in Sept that is very good.

So while Okada by most metrics is having a big year in the big matches, there is a bit of hyperbole that is alluding from some in regards to where he ranks as an all timer. The Fale match in particular was not very good and should be used as a negative for any argument in Okada's output for 2017. Maybe he will have 10+ more great years of high quality output. You could look at Kobashi at age 30 in 1997 and say the same thing until his body started to betray him and he was forced to adapt to continuing bringing quality matches to the table. Will Okada's body betray him? Will he be able to adapt as quickly as others when that time inevitably comes? These are strawman questions that are impossible to answer right now.
What else is there to go off of, when it comes to being a great worker? Anything else and you are getting too subjective and while I understand Dave's opinion is subjective, unfortunately, no one has been doing it as long and as consistently. Its like looking at historical prospect rankings. There is a lot inherently at issue when looking at say...Baseball America, Mel Kiper, Rivals.com or Scout.com...but, unfortunately, they are the historical barometer to gauge a metric such as this.

As for say...Danielson...I can understand the idea that Dave just didn't rate a lot of what he did on the Indies, but I am also of the belief that most of Danielson's truly great performances would be accounted for in his number. I'm sure you could dig around for some missing matches here or there, but ultimately, we're not getting to Okada type numbers, which is the point.

I am of the belief that pumping the breaks on declaring him the greatest or of the greatest of all time is as short sighted as you can get...so we will have differing opinions on this. It is of the same mindset that the GenPop had in 2011 where LeBron...yeah, he's "great", but he is no Jordan or Magic or Bird...he was putting up numbers that rivaled or bested most of the greats, and it was just a matter of time - when, not if - he would ascend to the pantheon of the sport. The same thing for Tom Brady...he went from flash in the pan to "great in his era" to all of a sudden you look around and he's probably the greatest QB in the history of football. While all of that was going on, the GenPop essentially missed out on just simply watching greatness unfold before their eyes and appreciating it.

Also this isn't about Okada having simply a great YEAR. This is about Okada having a historically great career, period and not in simply a subjective nature, but to quantify it with some numbers...all before the age of 30. We can nitpick here and there, but I am not sure there is any argument to be made at this point that Okada is at least on his way to GOAT status and that we are in the midst of that historic ascension.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by mrjoshdude » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:13 pm

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say he's had the greatest under 30 career of any wrestler ever bar none. The fact that we're discussing whether or not he is the greatest of all time while he's still in his 20s is a testament to his ability. There is currently a young lion in New Japan who is 2 years older than Okada. A young lion who wears black trunks and runs to the ring before Tiger Mask and Manabu Nakanishi is two years older than the man who is currently being discussed as very realistically the greatest wrestler in the history of wrestling. Think about that.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Alan4L » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:42 pm

The scary thing is I think he has had similar great output to 2017 in a bunch of other years. His 2013 was unreal.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Tigerkinney » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:43 pm

It's not just this year that Okada has been excellent, he's been excellent for the past five years- ever since he first challenged Hiroshi Tanahashi for the IWGP Heavyweight title. But it's definitely this past year where he's gone from being just one of the best of his era to someone where it wouldn't look silly to start discussing him among the greats. Even his weakest match in this current title reign against Bad Luck Fale, was somewhere around the 4-star mark, a low end 4-star but have past legends like Misawa, Kobashi etc been able to drag Fale to a 5-star classic?

Right now Okada's high end is beyond 5-star and his low end is 4-star every time he steps into the ring. Though no one's particularly enamoured about Cody challenging for the IWGP belt next month, I have faith in Okada that he will drag Cody up to his 4-star basement, rather than Cody dragging Okada down to his 3-star ceiling.

For me he's not quite there yet to be discussed as an all time great but he's well on his way to being one and would probably only need to have around five years of competing at his current level of exceptional output to stand amongst the greatest of all time. Though in terms of New Japan specific greatest, I would have no qualms about placing him Top 10 all time right now.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by soup23 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:10 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
soup23 wrote:Using star ratings as a marker is not a great barometer in general. Using Dave is especially egregious. He has seen and ranked almost all of Okada's big matches. How many ROH 2006 shows got the star rating treatment and coverage in the Observer from Dave? Not many from the shows I scanned on cagematch. That isn't even taking into account Danielson's output elsewhere in FIP, PWG pre Dave attending, IWA-MS, etc.

The comps to Misawa and Kobashi are probably the closest and most fair as Dave was regularly reviewing tv matches that were happening on AJ tv rundowns in the 90's.

As far as Okada is concerned, his big matches this year have all been ranked well by me (****+ for both Omega, Suzuki, Ibushi, Shibata). While I rank the Shibata match as the only classic, I am well aware that is a minority opinion. Still, declaring him the greatest wrestler ever or year ever feels short sighted when you can look at something like Kobashi's 1993. The back half of 1993 for Kenta had the Hansen singles match, Doc match, Kobashi October match and RWTL.

Even Misawa in 1993 has the two Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue tags, the Kawada Carnival singles and TC match in July, a Carnival final with Hansen that has been really underated over the years as well as the 5/93 Hansen match that is usually pointed to as their best together, a very good to great match vs Taue on 2/28 where Misawa is clearly in control, A doc title defense in Sept that is very good.

So while Okada by most metrics is having a big year in the big matches, there is a bit of hyperbole that is alluding from some in regards to where he ranks as an all timer. The Fale match in particular was not very good and should be used as a negative for any argument in Okada's output for 2017. Maybe he will have 10+ more great years of high quality output. You could look at Kobashi at age 30 in 1997 and say the same thing until his body started to betray him and he was forced to adapt to continuing bringing quality matches to the table. Will Okada's body betray him? Will he be able to adapt as quickly as others when that time inevitably comes? These are strawman questions that are impossible to answer right now.
What else is there to go off of, when it comes to being a great worker? Anything else and you are getting too subjective and while I understand Dave's opinion is subjective, unfortunately, no one has been doing it as long and as consistently. Its like looking at historical prospect rankings. There is a lot inherently at issue when looking at say...Baseball America, Mel Kiper, Rivals.com or Scout.com...but, unfortunately, they are the historical barometer to gauge a metric such as this.

As for say...Danielson...I can understand the idea that Dave just didn't rate a lot of what he did on the Indies, but I am also of the belief that most of Danielson's truly great performances would be accounted for in his number. I'm sure you could dig around for some missing matches here or there, but ultimately, we're not getting to Okada type numbers, which is the point.

I am of the belief that pumping the breaks on declaring him the greatest or of the greatest of all time is as short sighted as you can get...so we will have differing opinions on this. It is of the same mindset that the GenPop had in 2011 where LeBron...yeah, he's "great", but he is no Jordan or Magic or Bird...he was putting up numbers that rivaled or bested most of the greats, and it was just a matter of time - when, not if - he would ascend to the pantheon of the sport. The same thing for Tom Brady...he went from flash in the pan to "great in his era" to all of a sudden you look around and he's probably the greatest QB in the history of football. While all of that was going on, the GenPop essentially missed out on just simply watching greatness unfold before their eyes and appreciating it.

Also this isn't about Okada having simply a great YEAR. This is about Okada having a historically great career, period and not in simply a subjective nature, but to quantify it with some numbers...all before the age of 30. We can nitpick here and there, but I am not sure there is any argument to be made at this point that Okada is at least on his way to GOAT status and that we are in the midst of that historic ascension.

Dave isn't the only one that star rates though. There is a multitude of other individuals that have star rated and watched plenty of stuff from a historical perspective to offer another side to this historic run of Okada.

With Danielson, I think it goes way beyond Dave skipping a ranking "here and there". Lets take his 2005-2006 cagematch data and look at the matches.

vs. James Gibson when he wins ROH title (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Chris Hero 9/24/05 IWA-MS (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Roderick Strong 10/29/05 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Roderick Strong 11/5/05 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/2 from me)
vs. Christopher Daniels 11/19/05 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
w/ Jay Lethal vs Aries/Strong 1/27/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Styles 1/28/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Jimmy Rave 2/25/06 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Alex Shelley 3/11/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Strong 3/31/05 (****1/4 from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Nigel 4/29/05 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. HOmicide 6/3/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
Cage of Death 7/15/06 (No ranking from Dave, ****3/4 from me)
vs. Nigel 7/29/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Samoa Joe 8/5/06 (****1/4 from Dave, ****1/2 from me)
vs. Nigel 8/12/06 (****3/4 from Dave, ****1/2 from me)
vs. Strong 8/13/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Nigel 8/25/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. KENTA 9/16/06 (****3/4 from Dave, ****3/4 from me)

That gives you a one year run and there are other matches (vs Delirious, vs Aries 10/14/05, vs Colt Chi Town Struggle) that may be ****+ for me but I don't feel confident of that. So here you have 19 matches that I have at ****+ and only 4 that Dave rated. You can track that throughout his indy run as the first ranking on cagematch for a **** Danielson match is the first ROH main event so already you are missing the 2001 Ki series. I also cross referenced with Supasonic's reviews and he has even more ****+ performances from Danielson in this period. To put it mildly, Dave didn't really report on ROH well at all in the 2000's and Danielsons aggregate score above is affected horribly.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by ThommyGunn » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:19 pm

Alan4L wrote:He's blitzed past everyone in terms of great match quantity. It's becoming beyond comparison now.

The things that he's still competing with past legends like Tenryu, Misawa, Kobashi, Liger etc are more aura, moments, creating heat and other intangible things like that. As he gets older it will be interesting to see how he compares in those categories.
Great post! I am a hardline Okada defender and of the opinion that any negative thoughts on the dude are often contrarian for contrarians sake (wrestling twitter is the goddamn dirt worst) but this was a great post that maybe kind of opened my eyes a little bit.

I think there is no doubt that Okada might be the best in terms of in ring output. The actual quality, pacing, watchability of his matches are second to none. But I can understand your thoughts, maybe he does have room to improve on some of the things that take place outside the ring, or in between the actual lock ups and punches and what not.

I will say if you're someone who says Okada isn't the best, you're going to have to show your work and convince me. On another note fuck these contrarians who are literally trying to ruin everything for everyone.

FWIW,In a span of 4 months he produced two matches that I would consider contenders for greatest ever, vs. Omega @ WK and vs. Shibata.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by Garuda » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:33 pm

Yeah the thing that will affect his legacy is how much mainstream appeal he ends up getting. Match quality-wise he's well on his way to being among if not the greatest ever; the man's fucking incredible.

As a total package though it's hard to compete on an "aura" or "legend" level when he's not doing it at the height of a mainstream wrestling craze. But who knows, he's got a long career ahead of him, maybe he gets wrestling over in Japan to a huge degree with time. They're certainly growing.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by BoxingRobes » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:49 pm

soup23 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:
soup23 wrote:Using star ratings as a marker is not a great barometer in general. Using Dave is especially egregious. He has seen and ranked almost all of Okada's big matches. How many ROH 2006 shows got the star rating treatment and coverage in the Observer from Dave? Not many from the shows I scanned on cagematch. That isn't even taking into account Danielson's output elsewhere in FIP, PWG pre Dave attending, IWA-MS, etc.

The comps to Misawa and Kobashi are probably the closest and most fair as Dave was regularly reviewing tv matches that were happening on AJ tv rundowns in the 90's.

As far as Okada is concerned, his big matches this year have all been ranked well by me (****+ for both Omega, Suzuki, Ibushi, Shibata). While I rank the Shibata match as the only classic, I am well aware that is a minority opinion. Still, declaring him the greatest wrestler ever or year ever feels short sighted when you can look at something like Kobashi's 1993. The back half of 1993 for Kenta had the Hansen singles match, Doc match, Kobashi October match and RWTL.

Even Misawa in 1993 has the two Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue tags, the Kawada Carnival singles and TC match in July, a Carnival final with Hansen that has been really underated over the years as well as the 5/93 Hansen match that is usually pointed to as their best together, a very good to great match vs Taue on 2/28 where Misawa is clearly in control, A doc title defense in Sept that is very good.

So while Okada by most metrics is having a big year in the big matches, there is a bit of hyperbole that is alluding from some in regards to where he ranks as an all timer. The Fale match in particular was not very good and should be used as a negative for any argument in Okada's output for 2017. Maybe he will have 10+ more great years of high quality output. You could look at Kobashi at age 30 in 1997 and say the same thing until his body started to betray him and he was forced to adapt to continuing bringing quality matches to the table. Will Okada's body betray him? Will he be able to adapt as quickly as others when that time inevitably comes? These are strawman questions that are impossible to answer right now.
What else is there to go off of, when it comes to being a great worker? Anything else and you are getting too subjective and while I understand Dave's opinion is subjective, unfortunately, no one has been doing it as long and as consistently. Its like looking at historical prospect rankings. There is a lot inherently at issue when looking at say...Baseball America, Mel Kiper, Rivals.com or Scout.com...but, unfortunately, they are the historical barometer to gauge a metric such as this.

As for say...Danielson...I can understand the idea that Dave just didn't rate a lot of what he did on the Indies, but I am also of the belief that most of Danielson's truly great performances would be accounted for in his number. I'm sure you could dig around for some missing matches here or there, but ultimately, we're not getting to Okada type numbers, which is the point.

I am of the belief that pumping the breaks on declaring him the greatest or of the greatest of all time is as short sighted as you can get...so we will have differing opinions on this. It is of the same mindset that the GenPop had in 2011 where LeBron...yeah, he's "great", but he is no Jordan or Magic or Bird...he was putting up numbers that rivaled or bested most of the greats, and it was just a matter of time - when, not if - he would ascend to the pantheon of the sport. The same thing for Tom Brady...he went from flash in the pan to "great in his era" to all of a sudden you look around and he's probably the greatest QB in the history of football. While all of that was going on, the GenPop essentially missed out on just simply watching greatness unfold before their eyes and appreciating it.

Also this isn't about Okada having simply a great YEAR. This is about Okada having a historically great career, period and not in simply a subjective nature, but to quantify it with some numbers...all before the age of 30. We can nitpick here and there, but I am not sure there is any argument to be made at this point that Okada is at least on his way to GOAT status and that we are in the midst of that historic ascension.

Dave isn't the only one that star rates though. There is a multitude of other individuals that have star rated and watched plenty of stuff from a historical perspective to offer another side to this historic run of Okada.

With Danielson, I think it goes way beyond Dave skipping a ranking "here and there". Lets take his 2005-2006 cagematch data and look at the matches.

vs. James Gibson when he wins ROH title (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Chris Hero 9/24/05 IWA-MS (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Roderick Strong 10/29/05 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Roderick Strong 11/5/05 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/2 from me)
vs. Christopher Daniels 11/19/05 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
w/ Jay Lethal vs Aries/Strong 1/27/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Styles 1/28/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Jimmy Rave 2/25/06 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Alex Shelley 3/11/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Strong 3/31/05 (****1/4 from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Nigel 4/29/05 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. HOmicide 6/3/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
Cage of Death 7/15/06 (No ranking from Dave, ****3/4 from me)
vs. Nigel 7/29/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Samoa Joe 8/5/06 (****1/4 from Dave, ****1/2 from me)
vs. Nigel 8/12/06 (****3/4 from Dave, ****1/2 from me)
vs. Strong 8/13/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Nigel 8/25/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. KENTA 9/16/06 (****3/4 from Dave, ****3/4 from me)

That gives you a one year run and there are other matches (vs Delirious, vs Aries 10/14/05, vs Colt Chi Town Struggle) that may be ****+ for me but I don't feel confident of that. So here you have 19 matches that I have at ****+ and only 4 that Dave rated. You can track that throughout his indy run as the first ranking on cagematch for a **** Danielson match is the first ROH main event so already you are missing the 2001 Ki series. I also cross referenced with Supasonic's reviews and he has even more ****+ performances from Danielson in this period. To put it mildly, Dave didn't really report on ROH well at all in the 2000's and Danielsons aggregate score above is affected horribly.
I was living in and saw much of Danielson's Indie run...with that said, I think some of your ratings are a bit high here, but that is why I want to avoid this subjective conversation. When you look at historical ratings across the board for other sports or even movies...there are typically some standards you need to keep, otherwise, your Lanza types are going to chime in hating on Citizen Kane saying "this was only a ** film"...yeah, I don't really care what YOU rated those matches, because I could go ahead and say I rate another 50 Okada matches ****+ that aren't rated by the Observer, but again, it misses the point. I could give you all of Danielson's 05/06 and he'd still fall short of Okada's numbers...nevermind he isn't even close to Okada's high end of ***** and ****3/4 type matches. That isn't to dismiss Danielson, who, by proxy of being on this list, shows how highly I think of him, but to show how ridiculous Okada has been.

I think its such a foregone conclusion about Okada...I think an even better discussion is where ACE fits into this narrative with his ridiculous run of all-time great singles matches. Tanahashi fits right in with this Okada, Kenta Kobashi, Misawa narrative and doesn't get a lot of love. He's winding down, but he's still popping ****3/4 or better type fare more then once per year.

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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by MobbVanDam » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:55 pm

Even for funsies, if you just doubled Danielson's score in the OP, it wouldn't matter because for all intents and purposes his career is over, while Okada has presumably a long way to go. This is basically how I talked myself out of countering OP with an argument for Tanahashi. He's certainly got time to put up more numbers, but he's still lagging behind Okada in frequency, density, and potential future matches. Okada has made himself into a justified argument for GOAT in what, 4 years? Nobody else has that.

EDIT - didn't see above until after posting, but for me Tanahashi would've probably been an easy pick for this argument if you didn't consider where they are in their careers and how much high level work potential they have ahead. He's on the decline while Okada hasn't even come close to peaking.
Last edited by MobbVanDam on Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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soup23
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Re: Kazuchika Okada is the greatest singles wrestler in the history of wrestling.

Post by soup23 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:59 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
soup23 wrote:
BoxingRobes wrote:
What else is there to go off of, when it comes to being a great worker? Anything else and you are getting too subjective and while I understand Dave's opinion is subjective, unfortunately, no one has been doing it as long and as consistently. Its like looking at historical prospect rankings. There is a lot inherently at issue when looking at say...Baseball America, Mel Kiper, Rivals.com or Scout.com...but, unfortunately, they are the historical barometer to gauge a metric such as this.

As for say...Danielson...I can understand the idea that Dave just didn't rate a lot of what he did on the Indies, but I am also of the belief that most of Danielson's truly great performances would be accounted for in his number. I'm sure you could dig around for some missing matches here or there, but ultimately, we're not getting to Okada type numbers, which is the point.

I am of the belief that pumping the breaks on declaring him the greatest or of the greatest of all time is as short sighted as you can get...so we will have differing opinions on this. It is of the same mindset that the GenPop had in 2011 where LeBron...yeah, he's "great", but he is no Jordan or Magic or Bird...he was putting up numbers that rivaled or bested most of the greats, and it was just a matter of time - when, not if - he would ascend to the pantheon of the sport. The same thing for Tom Brady...he went from flash in the pan to "great in his era" to all of a sudden you look around and he's probably the greatest QB in the history of football. While all of that was going on, the GenPop essentially missed out on just simply watching greatness unfold before their eyes and appreciating it.

Also this isn't about Okada having simply a great YEAR. This is about Okada having a historically great career, period and not in simply a subjective nature, but to quantify it with some numbers...all before the age of 30. We can nitpick here and there, but I am not sure there is any argument to be made at this point that Okada is at least on his way to GOAT status and that we are in the midst of that historic ascension.

Dave isn't the only one that star rates though. There is a multitude of other individuals that have star rated and watched plenty of stuff from a historical perspective to offer another side to this historic run of Okada.

With Danielson, I think it goes way beyond Dave skipping a ranking "here and there". Lets take his 2005-2006 cagematch data and look at the matches.

vs. James Gibson when he wins ROH title (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Chris Hero 9/24/05 IWA-MS (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Roderick Strong 10/29/05 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Roderick Strong 11/5/05 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/2 from me)
vs. Christopher Daniels 11/19/05 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
w/ Jay Lethal vs Aries/Strong 1/27/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Styles 1/28/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Jimmy Rave 2/25/06 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Alex Shelley 3/11/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Strong 3/31/05 (****1/4 from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. Nigel 4/29/05 (No ranking from Dave, ****1/4 from me)
vs. HOmicide 6/3/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
Cage of Death 7/15/06 (No ranking from Dave, ****3/4 from me)
vs. Nigel 7/29/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Samoa Joe 8/5/06 (****1/4 from Dave, ****1/2 from me)
vs. Nigel 8/12/06 (****3/4 from Dave, ****1/2 from me)
vs. Strong 8/13/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. Nigel 8/25/06 (No ranking from Dave, **** from me)
vs. KENTA 9/16/06 (****3/4 from Dave, ****3/4 from me)

That gives you a one year run and there are other matches (vs Delirious, vs Aries 10/14/05, vs Colt Chi Town Struggle) that may be ****+ for me but I don't feel confident of that. So here you have 19 matches that I have at ****+ and only 4 that Dave rated. You can track that throughout his indy run as the first ranking on cagematch for a **** Danielson match is the first ROH main event so already you are missing the 2001 Ki series. I also cross referenced with Supasonic's reviews and he has even more ****+ performances from Danielson in this period. To put it mildly, Dave didn't really report on ROH well at all in the 2000's and Danielsons aggregate score above is affected horribly.
I was living in and saw much of Danielson's Indie run...with that said, I think some of your ratings are a bit high here, but that is why I want to avoid this subjective conversation. When you look at historical ratings across the board for other sports or even movies...there are typically some standards you need to keep, otherwise, your Lanza types are going to chime in hating on Citizen Kane saying "this was only a ** film"...yeah, I don't really care what YOU rated those matches, because I could go ahead and say I rate another 50 Okada matches ****+ that aren't rated by the Observer, but again, it misses the point. I could give you all of Danielson's 05/06 and he'd still fall short of Okada's numbers...nevermind he isn't even close to Okada's high end of ***** and ****3/4 type matches. That isn't to dismiss Danielson, who, by proxy of being on this list, shows how highly I think of him, but to show how ridiculous Okada has been.

I think its such a foregone conclusion about Okada...I think an even better discussion is where ACE fits into this narrative with his ridiculous run of all-time great singles matches. Tanahashi fits right in with this Okada, Kenta Kobashi, Misawa narrative and doesn't get a lot of love. He's winding down, but he's still popping ****3/4 or better type fare more then once per year.
So instead of subjective minutia this post is served as an objective measure and we should just go along with our day in acceptance?

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