2016 G1 Climax

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Garuda
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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by Garuda » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:21 am

ceftaxias wrote:Making weird faces and sounds really goes a long way for you huh
Does it bother you that I like a wrestler? Your last thirty posts are just you calling everyone's opinions dumb. Why be among people, then?

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by ceftaxias » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:36 am

I'm gonna need you to calm down ma'am.

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by Garuda » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:37 am

So you think my opinions are dumb and I think your personality is hopeless. That's as far as we'll get with words so let's just leave it there.

I hate dumb arguments on this forum, so I apologize for contributing one.

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by throwstuff165 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:56 am

benjaminkicks wrote:Been shipping these questions around reddit and twitter, and was wondering what you good people of the forums think about it:

If they go through with Omega/Okada at the Dome, does Okada need to win that match? Would eating a loss there hurt his status as a top guy? Does he need to be standing tall at the end of Wrestle Kingdom, simply because "he's the Ace"? Would losing to Omega there hurt Okada anymore than losing to Naito in that same spot? Because that's what every one assumed was happening before the G1, and I didn't see anyone have a problem with it.

Provided they do at least a solid job of building Omega between now and January, I don't see how a loss to Omega would be so much worse than a loss to Naito.
Even when Naito was the expected winner, I was of the mind that Okada should retain at the Dome.

The thing is, no, losing the title at Wrestle Kingdom doesn't hurt Okada by itself. The follow-up, though, is where I think it becomes problematic. Say Omega takes the belt. Does Okada then win the New Japan Cup and take it back at Invasion Attack? Because I don't think that accomplishes anything. Alternatively, he could win the NJC and lose at IA, or lose the NJC. At that point, I think those options do hurt him a bit. Not only would that be two high-profile losses in a row, but it also leaves him kind of floundering with nothing to do until the G1. They could put him into the IC Title picture, but I don't realistically see that happening. Okada's character would look at it as a step down, a position ill-befitting of the Rainmaker even if he's become marginally more respectful over the years. And even when the G1 rolls around, you're kind of in the position where he has to win it or he literally won't have accomplished anything all year. Losing the title at WK and then getting it back at Dominion is probably the best of the options around that line of thinking, but that still involves a big loss in the NJC and then I'm not sure what kayfabe reason he'd have to get that Dominion shot.

Comparatively, if he retains, he really cements his current reign and thus his slot at the top of the company as a whole. He's also got no shortage of challengers for the following months based on how much they've all been built up this year, the NJC in particular being wide open. And as long as Omega loses in a really close match, I don't think he's hurt at all either. He'd be firmly established as a threat by winning the G1 and taking Okada to the limit. He's also set up very easily for an IC Title feud since the champion coming out of WK is likely to be either Naito, who he just beat, or Tanahashi, who he beat originally. Or he could win the NJC and take the belt off Okada in his second try at IA. I wouldn't absolutely love that, but I think it's better than the WK option.

Admittedly, at the heart of my argument here is the fact that I've always been a firm believer in both long reigns and in looking strong in defeat sometimes being more beneficial in the long run that winning, but I really do think the best direction right now is a nice long reign for Okada. When WK12 rolls around, he'll be coming off of two strong wins at the big show in a row, and at that point his booking can become a good deal more fluid. But I don't think WK11 is the right time yet, for an Okada loss or an Omega win. Okada may not have a lot to lose, but it's more than Omega does.

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by wac » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:02 am

ceftaxias wrote:
Garuda wrote:Wrestling is an artform, but it it isn't flush with artists who really profoundly challenge the form. They build within it, they succeed, and they change and influence wrestling all along the way. But this Omega feels closer to an avant garde wrestler. He's the artist who challenges the viewer, and aims to destabilize them and attack convention to generate interest. I don't mean to oversell it, but there's such a unique energy to the way he worked this Goto match, right up to his philosophy of going out of his way to start and then cut off his own crowd response. He doesn't want the viewer to know how to react to him. He wants to be the prestige Oscar film and the trashy genre flick. He wants to keep his comedy but execute to it to huge dramatic moments. Against Naito, he clears off the English announce table, then does a cartoon villain's point at the apron, and finally powerbombs Naito through the table anyway. In the Goto match he clears out the first row of fans, then slams Goto onto the apron. It's funny, it's brilliant, and it's also the most dramatic spot of the first half of that match. Callback spots are usually associated with moments of high emotional and story, and here he uses a small callback for a comedy spot that you don't really laugh at. You only marvel.
Making weird faces and sounds really goes a long way for you huh
lol imagine still being this guy after the last two nights

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by Rainmaker_F7 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:00 am


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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by GOTNW » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:24 am

Garuda wrote: Wrestling is an artform, but it it isn't flush with artists who really profoundly challenge the form. They build within it, they succeed, and they change and influence wrestling all along the way. But this Omega feels closer to an avant garde wrestler. He's the artist who challenges the viewer, and aims to destabilize them and attack convention to generate interest. I don't mean to oversell it, but there's such a unique energy to the way he worked this Goto match, right up to his philosophy of going out of his way to start and then cut off his own crowd response. He doesn't want the viewer to know how to react to him. He wants to be the prestige Oscar film and the trashy genre flick. He wants to keep his comedy but execute to it to huge dramatic moments. Against Naito, he clears off the English announce table, then does a cartoon villain's point at the apron, and finally powerbombs Naito through the table anyway. In the Goto match he clears out the first row of fans, then slams Goto onto the apron. It's funny, it's brilliant, and it's also the most dramatic spot of the first half of that match. Callback spots are usually associated with moments of high emotional and story, and here he uses a small callback for a comedy spot that you don't really laugh at. You only marvel.

I'll stop there, but bring on the goddamn Age of Omega.
I don't really buy Omega is profoundly challenging wrestling or challenging it at all. We've seen goofy pro wrestler before. We've seen pro wrestlers whose characters were literally anime characters. We've seen pro wrestlers reference other companies. The redirection you speak of is something I really like in wrestling-I wish there was more of "wrestler teases going for move x and does move y"-but it's literally present in Buddy Rogers matches and may have been around even earlier. With Omega there hava been flashes of brilliance in the last week, and before that years of completely uninspired work. It's good that he's created a unique character for himself but doing so doesn't mean he's challenging the norms of pro wrestling. Having a character is something every wrestler should strive for. Honestly his character isn't nearly as thought provoking as Naito's of a complete nihilist. In terms of challenging pro wrestling through ringwork Omega's most famous attempts would be the match where he like, Dragon Suplexed someone of a hill and the insane Ibushi DDT match, and while I can easily see someone thinking both super duper great neither were exactly groundbreaking in terms of what you can do in pro wrestling. I appreciate your enthusiasm for pro wrestling but it sound a lot like someone listening to a noise band for the first time and thinking this has to be the greatest thing that ever was and nothing like this could have been before.

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by Garuda » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:13 pm

GOTNW wrote: I don't really buy Omega is profoundly challenging wrestling or challenging it at all. We've seen goofy pro wrestler before. We've seen pro wrestlers whose characters were literally anime characters. We've seen pro wrestlers reference other companies. The redirection you speak of is something I really like in wrestling-I wish there was more of "wrestler teases going for move x and does move y"-but it's literally present in Buddy Rogers matches and may have been around even earlier. With Omega there hava been flashes of brilliance in the last week, and before that years of completely uninspired work. It's good that he's created a unique character for himself but doing so doesn't mean he's challenging the norms of pro wrestling. Having a character is something every wrestler should strive for. Honestly his character isn't nearly as thought provoking as Naito's of a complete nihilist. In terms of challenging pro wrestling through ringwork Omega's most famous attempts would be the match where he like, Dragon Suplexed someone of a hill and the insane Ibushi DDT match, and while I can easily see someone thinking both super duper great neither were exactly groundbreaking in terms of what you can do in pro wrestling. I appreciate your enthusiasm for pro wrestling but it sound a lot like someone listening to a noise band for the first time and thinking this has to be the greatest thing that ever was and nothing like this could have been before.
I think you misread my meaning, but of course I may have just miswrote my meaning. Maybe it comes down to the choice of the word "challenging." I'm not nor would I argue that Omega's changed the game in some profound way. Even if he had it'd be too early to call. When I say he's "challenging" norms I just mean that most wrestlers are going for crowd reaction and support in a few general ways, wheras Kenny Omega is trying to color outside the lines of traditional reactions. He's toying with convention to make something separate, I'm not arguing that he's trying to tear down pro wrestling as it stands and replace it.

You go on to talk about moves and Naito. I guess that's a "to each his own" on how you measure those things. I also wasn't saying that he's created pro wrestling anew with his moveset, just that he's thinking and trying to think of new bits of psychology to use in his matches that feel very fresh. Are they brand new? I don't know, I'm not as well read on it, but they're extremely interesting, which was all of my point on the matter. As for character work, I think you can definitely make an argument that Naito's still more interesting, but again I wasn't ranking the NJPW talent on interest. And Omega's extremely interesting to me in his own right becuase you have a similar degree of what you have with Naito, which is a character who is consistent and yet unpredictable. I look forward to both of their antics and both of thieir matches. "Years of uninsprired work" deserves a reaction from a more knowledgeable person then me, but I've loved all the old stuff I've seen of him. He's never felt uninspird or lazy in my experience.

Finally you mention the noise band thing. Once again I wasn't making the point that nothing like this has ever happened before. Just that it's refreshingly different. If you're unrefreshed, so be it. But I don't see a whole lot of continuity between what I said and your response. Never said he's changing wrestling or that he stands apart as a perfectly new wrestling phenomenon.

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by GOTNW » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:09 pm

Garuda wrote:
GOTNW wrote: I don't really buy Omega is profoundly challenging wrestling or challenging it at all. We've seen goofy pro wrestler before. We've seen pro wrestlers whose characters were literally anime characters. We've seen pro wrestlers reference other companies. The redirection you speak of is something I really like in wrestling-I wish there was more of "wrestler teases going for move x and does move y"-but it's literally present in Buddy Rogers matches and may have been around even earlier. With Omega there hava been flashes of brilliance in the last week, and before that years of completely uninspired work. It's good that he's created a unique character for himself but doing so doesn't mean he's challenging the norms of pro wrestling. Having a character is something every wrestler should strive for. Honestly his character isn't nearly as thought provoking as Naito's of a complete nihilist. In terms of challenging pro wrestling through ringwork Omega's most famous attempts would be the match where he like, Dragon Suplexed someone of a hill and the insane Ibushi DDT match, and while I can easily see someone thinking both super duper great neither were exactly groundbreaking in terms of what you can do in pro wrestling. I appreciate your enthusiasm for pro wrestling but it sound a lot like someone listening to a noise band for the first time and thinking this has to be the greatest thing that ever was and nothing like this could have been before.
I think you misread my meaning, but of course I may have just miswrote my meaning. Maybe it comes down to the choice of the word "challenging." I'm not nor would I argue that Omega's changed the game in some profound way. Even if he had it'd be too early to call. When I say he's "challenging" norms I just mean that most wrestlers are going for crowd reaction and support in a few general ways, wheras Kenny Omega is trying to color outside the lines of traditional reactions. He's toying with convention to make something separate, I'm not arguing that he's trying to tear down pro wrestling as it stands and replace it.

You go on to talk about moves and Naito. I guess that's a "to each his own" on how you measure those things. I also wasn't saying that he's created pro wrestling anew with his moveset, just that he's thinking and trying to think of new bits of psychology to use in his matches that feel very fresh. Are they brand new? I don't know, I'm not as well read on it, but they're extremely interesting, which was all of my point on the matter. As for character work, I think you can definitely make an argument that Naito's still more interesting, but again I wasn't ranking the NJPW talent on interest. And Omega's extremely interesting to me in his own right becuase you have a similar degree of what you have with Naito, which is a character who is consistent and yet unpredictable. I look forward to both of their antics and both of thieir matches. "Years of uninsprired work" deserves a reaction from a more knowledgeable person then me, but I've loved all the old stuff I've seen of him. He's never felt uninspird or lazy in my experience.

Finally you mention the noise band thing. Once again I wasn't making the point that nothing like this has ever happened before. Just that it's refreshingly different. If you're unrefreshed, so be it. But I don't see a whole lot of continuity between what I said and your response. Never said he's changing wrestling or that he stands apart as a perfectly new wrestling phenomenon.
"Kenny Omega is trying to color outside the lines of traditional reactions. He's toying with convention to make something separate"

Don't really agree with this, and it's the part I'm arguing with you about.

"You go on to talk about moves"
"I also wasn't saying that he's created pro wrestling anew with his moveset, just that he's thinking and trying to think of new bits of psychology to use in his matches that feel very fresh"

No. I don't talk about moves. The guy who said Omega and Goto have a top five moveset in the world talk about moves. I'm talking about the psychology behind Omega using the moves the way he does in the examples you've given me also being present in sixty five year old matches.


As for the uninspired work line- people over here are generally much, much higher on junior and workrate matches than i am but I honestly don't see how someone could look at the Naito match and think "yeah, all of those, uhm....Taguchi and KUSHIDA matches were almost as good". There was stuff of his in All Japan in DDT where he showed that kind of potential but this really were the first times he really stepped on that insane level of performance in my opinion.

They may not exactly be my favourite performers but there have been some absolutely fascinating posts about the post-modernism of The Young Bucks' act. I mentioned Naito because he is someone who is also doing something like that, albeit different due to his positioning. I don't really see anything that groundbreaking about Omega's character. Not that it doesn't mean you can't like it or that it doesn't feel fresh to you, but it's a different thing to say that and to say "Kenny Omega is changing pro wrestling and challenging it's principles" or something along those lines. Maybe it stands out so much because most indy workers don't know how to work outside of move>move>move 2.99 nearfall :)

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by Garuda » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:51 pm

So I'm trying to get a sense of what you think of Omega in summary. Here's my guess, and you tell me how close or far from the mark it is.

He's boring, he's uninspired, his act isn't groundbreaking, and the stuff he's been doing has been done long ago. These last two matches were great but he's undeserving of any significant praise after having only two great matches where he showed off elite-level work.

It's loud and clear that you disagree with me but I'd like to understand your total opinion on the guy.

EDIT: I still think you're misunderstanding my argument as having any interest in how "new" his stuff is, which means nothing to me. I get the sense you're saying that his stuff isn't significantly different from anything that people are doing now or that people have ben doing throughout wrestling. If that's true, I don't totally disagree, but again I"m not arguing that he's some transformational talent. And again, when I say he's challenging convention, read it as "riffing" off convention. I'm not saying he's tearing down the walls, just that he's trying to play against convention as opposed to playing within it.

I think our disagreement is just about whether he's significantly different from anyone else past or present. I feel he's got a really fresh and different thing going, but not that the elements of his act are brand-spanking-new or never before seen. If you don't feel simiraly then I think it's just a difference in taste, not some separation in philosophy that needs to be argued online.

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by Heather » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:45 pm

Grammarian wrote:Omega within a 24 hour period had two 5 star matches in my book.
I completely agree! I honestly cannot recall a single wrestler who has managed to accomplish back-to-back 5-star matches on consecutive nights.
Just incredible!

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by Heather » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:37 pm

"Years of uninspired work" deserves a reaction from a more knowledgeable person then me, but I've loved all the old stuff I've seen of him. He's never felt uninspired or lazy in my experience."


I get that Kenny Omega isn't everyone's cup of tea. My first exposure to Kenny Omega was at the Rahway Rec Center at a New Jersey All Pro event back in (roughly) 2007. I knew nothing of him before that, but I thought he was fantastic. He was destined to become a star. To that point I had never seen comedy incorporated into a wrestling match so it was refreshing. (Now mind you, years later some of his comedy was/is pretty cringe-worthy, so I've learned my limits, lol. Some of his DDT work is just unwatchable for me. I can't watch a man get powerbombed in a g-string. Just no.)

From 2007 I didn't see much of him until 2010 when I caught a clip from PWG 100 with the "spot that never ends" with Bryan Danielson and I laughed my ass off... I wondered what happened to that guy and it turned out he did some work in PWG (which I had no idea existed until YouTube) that was wonderful. Then I discovered Wrestle Kingdom 9 after learning AJ Styles was in NJPW, and low and behold there's this guy that I remembered from the Rahway Rec Center again. (He was a platinum blond then, and here his hair looked gray so I wondered how the hell old he actually was and how many years actually passed! But I digress...) I subscribed to New Japan World primarily because of Kenny Omega, and binged on all of his content before making my way through events/storylines of 2012-2016.

Never would I ever call his work uninspired. This is someone who clearly has a lot of pride, heart, and talent, and loves what he does. It's evident he puts a lot of effort into crafting a character, a match, and a story (even if I don't get it, even if I cringe). He definitely cares.

I feel like, especially after this weekend, so many people now see him as I did back in that rec center nearly 9 years ago. A tremendously talented man who deserves, and has worked his ass off for, all the success in the world.

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by Joe Lanza » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:55 pm

GOTNW wrote: With Omega there hava been flashes of brilliance in the last week, and before that years of completely uninspired work.
Kenny Omega is not for everyone, and I can easily see why he rubs people the wrong way, but the absolute last criticism on Earth I would use to describe him is "completely uninspired work".

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by pol » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:26 pm

Depends what you mean by uninspired, but I do think he often has long stretches in his matches that are really pretty dull, especially when he's working heel. There's a lot of boring clubbering in between the hot moves. I guess the idea is that his character work carries it, but if you find his character work annoying as hell and suspension of disbelief destroying...yeah.

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Re: 2016 G1 Climax

Post by Joe Lanza » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:46 pm

pol wrote:Depends what you mean by uninspired, but I do think he often has long stretches in his matches that are really pretty dull, especially when he's working heel. There's a lot of boring clubbering in between the hot moves. I guess the idea is that his character work carries it, but if you find his character work annoying as hell and suspension of disbelief destroying...yeah.
I like Omega, but obviously not everything he does lands. A lot of it falls completely flat. But he never comes across as an uncreative guy or as someone who's mailing it in. He's also someone who for all of his experimentation, knows exactly when to turn it up, dial it down, or go completely off the rails. Right down to things like the gear he chooses. I think everything he does is by design. Wacky gets gets serious Kenny over.

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