Most Outstanding Wrester

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Rich Kraetsch
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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:17 pm

Ospreay is a fine pick for this award. I wouldn't begrudge anyone who votes for him. To me, though, it's Chris Hero and it means more than the raw number of MOTYCs. Hero probably hasn't had the same amount of top-top tier matches as other guys around the world but he's had the most consistent year, he's able to work a multitude of styles in a multitude of promotions/regions/companies and delivers each and everytime. I give him tons of credit for that. The Hero you see in AAW isn't necessarily the Hero you see in PWG. More than that, Hero can change match by match, night by night, opponent by opponent, he's a wrestling chameleon and 2016 has been his opus.

Ospreay has had more spectacular, jump off the page matches and moments in 2016 but Hero (in my opinion) is a more consistent, all-around worker and thus my easy vote for Most Outstanding.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by Morten VH » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:29 pm

For puro that isn't NJPW, Shuji Ishikawa is definitely the top pick. Guy is consistently amazing in everything he does. He's worked top level hoss fights in BJW. He's worked some of the best deathmatches of the year. He's even worked a MOTYC with Danshoku Dino. This guy is a giant weighing over 140kg and he's having MOTYC's in every wrestling style imaginable.

My vote for most outstanding, and some may roll their eyes at this, is Kazuchika Okada. I have two ***** matches from him this year and he's working his butt of every single night on every single show. He had an incredible G1 too. I just don't think anyone can match him on high end stuff. Hiroshi Tanahashi is gonna be very high for me too, because of Wrestle Kingdom & his incredible G1 (like every year).

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by jamesie » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:31 pm

Hero for me. He's been in every possible indy tournament all over the world and generally has been the MVP every time. He's been consistent, versatile and brilliant everywhere he goes. Excellent tag worker with more than one partner. Never dipped throughout the year. In fact he's getting better and better. The week he's just had is the cherry on the cake.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:31 pm

Morten VH wrote:My vote for most outstanding, and some may roll their eyes at this, is Kazuchika Okada. I have two ***** matches from him this year and he's working his butt of every single night on every single show. He had an incredible G1 too. I just don't think anyone can match him on high end stuff. Hiroshi Tanahashi is gonna be very high for me too, because of Wrestle Kingdom & his incredible G1 (like every year).
:roll: :roll: Pretty boy Okada :roll: :roll:

Kidding, of course. I talked about his resume a few weeks ago on the podcast. He's had a quietly amazing year when put into context. You could easily vote him both Wrestler of the Year and Most Outstanding if you felt so inclined. In our little bubble he gets chastised but it's really unfair. He's having yet another remarkable year, I feel bad for people who chose not to enjoy it.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by soup23 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:32 pm

Chris Hero: I echo what Rich has said above. I think just tracking Hero in the tournaments he has competed in is a good enough case from him. He play subtle heel vs. Liger in Night 1 of BOLA and then goes full blown vs. ManDrews. In the SSS16, he acts like the biggest bad ass from the US and can go toe to toe with the monsters from Europe like End and Walter. In SCI, Hero performs like an established veteran outsider and has numerous different but very good matches with Kyle Matthews (he does some WOS matwork here btw) and a slugfest with Chip Day before being the main glue to the final. Jim Lynam and TPI both had him receiving his appreciation for his year overall. His Lynam performance is actually my favorite tournament for him as he has the giant match with Kongo, the bully masterpiece vs. Fitchett, a sprint vs. Ali and another fantastic match with Sabre. In addition to all of this, Hero has been able to cultivate multiple intriguing and layered feuds vs. Tracy Williams, Riddle, and Sabre. Tag team wrestling is also a specialty for Hero as he has had some great tags this year teaming with End, the Death by Elbow tag is very good and even one off tags like the match from AAW Art of War 2016. Hero is an indy legend that deserves to be put into any conversation with any of the revered indy wrestlers from 2000 onward.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by VilinskiKonjic » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:33 pm

ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap wrote:
Rich Kraetsch wrote:
mrjoshdude wrote:Chris Hero, and it isn't close.
My vote as well. If you follow the American indie scene in particular, there's really no other choice. He's worked an insane schedule, bouncing between continents and delivering literally each and every time. I don't think I've seen a mediocre Chris Hero match all year. The guys work ethic is incredible and more than that, his ability to work within the style of his opponent deserves recognition. His BOLA performances alone show you the scope he has from one match working as a veteran bully to embracing lucha style rolls and moves. He's done it all against a wide array of opponents.

I can't fathom voting for anyone else this year.

Does Chris Hero have even close to as many MOTYC's as Ospreay? Ospreay has Scurrlx5, Sabrex4, Ricochetx3,Dunnex2 KUSHIDA, Taguchi, Fenix, Bailey, Hakins, Strickland, BOLA Night 2 Main Event, Mercury Rising Main Event, 16 carat Night 3 semi-main .. Thats 25 MOTYC's in one year(which is not even over yet)

His schedule is even more insane than Hero has he bounces between USA, Japan, England, Scottland, Ireland, Germany, Mexico, Taiwan, Singapore and even New Zealand. I challenge you to find a mediocre Ospreay match. Even the NJPW Multi-mans have some gr8 spots 'cuz of him and he is the MVP of those.
If we count MOTYCs as ****1/2 or higher, then for me Ospreay has eight singles (Scurll x2, Strickland, Sabre, Kushida, Taguchi, Ricochet, Haskins) and one tag (Ospreay/Bailey vs. Lee/Scurll). Hero has nine singles (Sabre x2, Mark Andrews, Tommy End, Scurll x2, Gresham, Riddle, Ishii) and three tags (Hero/End vs. Roppongi Vice, Hero/End vs. Pentagon/Fenix, Hero/Dunn vs. Dickinson/Dijak). And that's with me seeing 11 more Ospreay matches this year than Hero ones (55 to 44).

I think there's a case to be made for Ospreay, but I can't look at anyone but Hero for Most Outstanding. There's definitely at least three Hero matches I'd consider better than my favourite Ospreay match this year, and I feel like Hero brings it with a lot more consistency as well. I realise Kraetsch has said more or less exactly the same thing, but I'd defend the point as well.

I do think AJ Styles will end up beating both, however. I wish more promotions would give Trevor Lee the ball, as he'd be a great #3 to Hero and Ospreay if there were more promotions where he was firing as well as he has in CWF this year. Hell, his CWF work alone brings him close for me.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by soup23 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
Morten VH wrote:My vote for most outstanding, and some may roll their eyes at this, is Kazuchika Okada. I have two ***** matches from him this year and he's working his butt of every single night on every single show. He had an incredible G1 too. I just don't think anyone can match him on high end stuff. Hiroshi Tanahashi is gonna be very high for me too, because of Wrestle Kingdom & his incredible G1 (like every year).
:roll: :roll: Pretty boy Okada :roll: :roll:

Kidding, of course. I talked about his resume a few weeks ago on the podcast. He's had a quietly amazing year when put into context. You could easily vote him both Wrestler of the Year and Most Outstanding if you felt so inclined. In our little bubble he gets chastised but it's really unfair. He's having yet another remarkable year, I feel bad for people who chose not to enjoy it.
Okada is a weird one for me this year. He won't be in my top 5 but he has had a strong year in some regards. I do really enjoy the Naito feud and his involvement vs. LIJ overall as he felt like the true leader of Chaos which was crucial for his development. Ditto the NOAH feud and his interactions with Marufuji. The WK match is held in high regard and a MOTYC for many. Beyond that though, Okada does have some disappointing stuff. The Goto title defense was dry as a bone. I felt like his G-1 was a bit uneven as I wasn't a fan of the Tonga, Goto, or Makabe matches there. In addition, I am lower than pretty much everyone on the Tanahashi G-1 match so that is a negative for me on a personal basis. He does have that Ishii match though which is spectacular. Overall, I thought Okada made some big strides this year and showed that he could be the main focal point for the most part of the promotion as they bring the others up to his level (Omega and Naito).

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by ceftaxias » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:12 pm

I think we definitely need to redefine the term MOTYC after this thread :p

To bring up some candidates not mentioned itt yet, Rush, Gulak, Hechicero, Akiyama, Black Terry, Yehi, Hideki Suzuki, and as I'm going through some of his stuff I've been needing to catch up on, Thatcher is a guy that's gone from disappointing year to sneaky good year with some real standout matches outside of EVOLVE.

Akiyama probably seems like a weird pick but I think I'm generally more interested in input rather than # of great matches for this. Whenever I watch a match of his I usually come away thinking not only is he clearly the best guy in the match, but he's also the most integral guy in holding the match together and making it good, probably an advantage of his position in AJPW but also a result of him still being one of the best in the world. And if you need that high end world title nearfall bout, he has the Miyahara match which I'd be fine with calling the best single performance of the year.

Also need to catch up on some of this second half of the year L.A. Park because I'm sure he'd be up there for me.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:23 am

VilinskiKonjic wrote:
ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap wrote:
Rich Kraetsch wrote:
My vote as well. If you follow the American indie scene in particular, there's really no other choice. He's worked an insane schedule, bouncing between continents and delivering literally each and every time. I don't think I've seen a mediocre Chris Hero match all year. The guys work ethic is incredible and more than that, his ability to work within the style of his opponent deserves recognition. His BOLA performances alone show you the scope he has from one match working as a veteran bully to embracing lucha style rolls and moves. He's done it all against a wide array of opponents.

I can't fathom voting for anyone else this year.

Does Chris Hero have even close to as many MOTYC's as Ospreay? Ospreay has Scurrlx5, Sabrex4, Ricochetx3,Dunnex2 KUSHIDA, Taguchi, Fenix, Bailey, Hakins, Strickland, BOLA Night 2 Main Event, Mercury Rising Main Event, 16 carat Night 3 semi-main .. Thats 25 MOTYC's in one year(which is not even over yet)

His schedule is even more insane than Hero has he bounces between USA, Japan, England, Scottland, Ireland, Germany, Mexico, Taiwan, Singapore and even New Zealand. I challenge you to find a mediocre Ospreay match. Even the NJPW Multi-mans have some gr8 spots 'cuz of him and he is the MVP of those.
If we count MOTYCs as ****1/2 or higher, then for me Ospreay has eight singles (Scurll x2, Strickland, Sabre, Kushida, Taguchi, Ricochet, Haskins) and one tag (Ospreay/Bailey vs. Lee/Scurll). Hero has nine singles (Sabre x2, Mark Andrews, Tommy End, Scurll x2, Gresham, Riddle, Ishii) and three tags (Hero/End vs. Roppongi Vice, Hero/End vs. Pentagon/Fenix, Hero/Dunn vs. Dickinson/Dijak). And that's with me seeing 11 more Ospreay matches this year than Hero ones (55 to 44).

I think there's a case to be made for Ospreay, but I can't look at anyone but Hero for Most Outstanding. There's definitely at least three Hero matches I'd consider better than my favourite Ospreay match this year, and I feel like Hero brings it with a lot more consistency as well. I realise Kraetsch has said more or less exactly the same thing, but I'd defend the point as well.

I do think AJ Styles will end up beating both, however. I wish more promotions would give Trevor Lee the ball, as he'd be a great #3 to Hero and Ospreay if there were more promotions where he was firing as well as he has in CWF this year. Hell, his CWF work alone brings him close for me.

Yeah, Hero is of course a great pick. But, if we are being honest here and taking into account the voting pattern of previous awards, we realize that he isn't winning. Since the winners are usually from WWE/NJPW. So, the most probable contenders are AJ Styles, Ishii, Okada, Tanahashi, etc. Ospreay, however, has an outside chance due to him being linked to NJPW.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:24 am

Can anyone make a good case for Marufuji ?

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:26 am

Rich Kraetsch wrote:Ospreay is a fine pick for this award. I wouldn't begrudge anyone who votes for him. To me, though, it's Chris Hero and it means more than the raw number of MOTYCs. Hero probably hasn't had the same amount of top-top tier matches as other guys around the world but he's had the most consistent year, he's able to work a multitude of styles in a multitude of promotions/regions/companies and delivers each and everytime. I give him tons of credit for that. The Hero you see in AAW isn't necessarily the Hero you see in PWG. More than that, Hero can change match by match, night by night, opponent by opponent, he's a wrestling chameleon and 2016 has been his opus.

Ospreay has had more spectacular, jump off the page matches and moments in 2016 but Hero (in my opinion) is a more consistent, all-around worker and thus my easy vote for Most Outstanding.
Very well said.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:30 am

Morten VH wrote:For puro that isn't NJPW, Shuji Ishikawa is definitely the top pick. Guy is consistently amazing in everything he does. He's worked top level hoss fights in BJW. He's worked some of the best deathmatches of the year. He's even worked a MOTYC with Danshoku Dino. This guy is a giant weighing over 140kg and he's having MOTYC's in every wrestling style imaginable.

My vote for most outstanding, and some may roll their eyes at this, is Kazuchika Okada. I have two ***** matches from him this year and he's working his butt of every single night on every single show. He had an incredible G1 too. I just don't think anyone can match him on high end stuff. Hiroshi Tanahashi is gonna be very high for me too, because of Wrestle Kingdom & his incredible G1 (like every year).
Tanahashi and Okada often get taken for granted. But, in terms of high-end stuff nobody can touch them (except for maybe Omega).

For non-NJPW puro, Ishikawa is the easy pick. But, the likes of Okabayashi, Miyahara, etc. also deserve a look. But, precedent shows that none of those guys will come even close to winning.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by VilinskiKonjic » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:49 pm

ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap wrote:
VilinskiKonjic wrote:
ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap wrote:

Does Chris Hero have even close to as many MOTYC's as Ospreay? Ospreay has Scurrlx5, Sabrex4, Ricochetx3,Dunnex2 KUSHIDA, Taguchi, Fenix, Bailey, Hakins, Strickland, BOLA Night 2 Main Event, Mercury Rising Main Event, 16 carat Night 3 semi-main .. Thats 25 MOTYC's in one year(which is not even over yet)

His schedule is even more insane than Hero has he bounces between USA, Japan, England, Scottland, Ireland, Germany, Mexico, Taiwan, Singapore and even New Zealand. I challenge you to find a mediocre Ospreay match. Even the NJPW Multi-mans have some gr8 spots 'cuz of him and he is the MVP of those.
If we count MOTYCs as ****1/2 or higher, then for me Ospreay has eight singles (Scurll x2, Strickland, Sabre, Kushida, Taguchi, Ricochet, Haskins) and one tag (Ospreay/Bailey vs. Lee/Scurll). Hero has nine singles (Sabre x2, Mark Andrews, Tommy End, Scurll x2, Gresham, Riddle, Ishii) and three tags (Hero/End vs. Roppongi Vice, Hero/End vs. Pentagon/Fenix, Hero/Dunn vs. Dickinson/Dijak). And that's with me seeing 11 more Ospreay matches this year than Hero ones (55 to 44).

I think there's a case to be made for Ospreay, but I can't look at anyone but Hero for Most Outstanding. There's definitely at least three Hero matches I'd consider better than my favourite Ospreay match this year, and I feel like Hero brings it with a lot more consistency as well. I realise Kraetsch has said more or less exactly the same thing, but I'd defend the point as well.

I do think AJ Styles will end up beating both, however. I wish more promotions would give Trevor Lee the ball, as he'd be a great #3 to Hero and Ospreay if there were more promotions where he was firing as well as he has in CWF this year. Hell, his CWF work alone brings him close for me.

Yeah, Hero is of course a great pick. But, if we are being honest here and taking into account the voting pattern of previous awards, we realize that he isn't winning. Since the winners are usually from WWE/NJPW. So, the most probable contenders are AJ Styles, Ishii, Okada, Tanahashi, etc. Ospreay, however, has an outside chance due to him being linked to NJPW.
Oh totally, if it's a case of who will win rather than who I'd vote for, then Hero will be lucky to break the top 3-5. I figure the top three will be Styles, Okada and Naito, with the likes of Ospreay and Tanahashi not far behind.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:00 am

Rich Kraetsch wrote:Ospreay is a fine pick for this award. I wouldn't begrudge anyone who votes for him. To me, though, it's Chris Hero and it means more than the raw number of MOTYCs. Hero probably hasn't had the same amount of top-top tier matches as other guys around the world but he's had the most consistent year, he's able to work a multitude of styles in a multitude of promotions/regions/companies and delivers each and everytime. I give him tons of credit for that. The Hero you see in AAW isn't necessarily the Hero you see in PWG. More than that, Hero can change match by match, night by night, opponent by opponent, he's a wrestling chameleon and 2016 has been his opus.

Ospreay has had more spectacular, jump off the page matches and moments in 2016 but Hero (in my opinion) is a more consistent, all-around worker and thus my easy vote for Most Outstanding.
VilinskiKonjic wrote:
ChutiyaHogaTeraBaap wrote:
VilinskiKonjic wrote:
If we count MOTYCs as ****1/2 or higher, then for me Ospreay has eight singles (Scurll x2, Strickland, Sabre, Kushida, Taguchi, Ricochet, Haskins) and one tag (Ospreay/Bailey vs. Lee/Scurll). Hero has nine singles (Sabre x2, Mark Andrews, Tommy End, Scurll x2, Gresham, Riddle, Ishii) and three tags (Hero/End vs. Roppongi Vice, Hero/End vs. Pentagon/Fenix, Hero/Dunn vs. Dickinson/Dijak). And that's with me seeing 11 more Ospreay matches this year than Hero ones (55 to 44).

I think there's a case to be made for Ospreay, but I can't look at anyone but Hero for Most Outstanding. There's definitely at least three Hero matches I'd consider better than my favourite Ospreay match this year, and I feel like Hero brings it with a lot more consistency as well. I realise Kraetsch has said more or less exactly the same thing, but I'd defend the point as well.

I do think AJ Styles will end up beating both, however. I wish more promotions would give Trevor Lee the ball, as he'd be a great #3 to Hero and Ospreay if there were more promotions where he was firing as well as he has in CWF this year. Hell, his CWF work alone brings him close for me.

Yeah, Hero is of course a great pick. But, if we are being honest here and taking into account the voting pattern of previous awards, we realize that he isn't winning. Since the winners are usually from WWE/NJPW. So, the most probable contenders are AJ Styles, Ishii, Okada, Tanahashi, etc. Ospreay, however, has an outside chance due to him being linked to NJPW.
Oh totally, if it's a case of who will win rather than who I'd vote for, then Hero will be lucky to break the top 3-5. I figure the top three will be Styles, Okada and Naito, with the likes of Ospreay and Tanahashi not far behind.

Add Kenny Omega to that list.

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Re: Most Outstanding Wrester

Post by elloziom » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:36 pm

Funny thing about Tanahashi is that every year since 2013-14 I think that he is really going to fall in the ballots and every year I'm wrong. This was probably the world Tanahashi year since 2010 (and it's mostly due to injuries) and he is still probably going to be in top 10. Am i the only one that thinks that choosing only 3 wrestlers for this award is kind of bad, because of how many guys had great year? I could probably think of like 30 wrestlers that could end up in my top 10. For example let's take Ibushi. He probably had like 15 matches, but his run in cwc was one of the Best things I've seen this year.

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