Most Overrated

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Lawsoncomedy
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Re: Most Overrated

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:57 am

Big Show is clearly #1 to me. In that he beat up guys like Dolph Ziggler and Cesaro a whole bunch. Kane got main events, sure. But at least he lost a lot. Also, in many segments he was quite good. I feel Kane earned his TV time more than Show. And Show barely ever loses. Even Ryback couldn't pin him on a PPV. Dean Ambrose couldn't beat him. It's enraging.

I don't agree about Charlotte at all. Honestly to me she was under pushed, in that rather than come in on her first night and beat Nikki for the title and establish a new reign, we had all this meticulous build and nonsense. That would've gotten this "Revolution" over more than what they did. I think voting for Nikki Bella makes way more sense, her title reign went forever.

And I'd only agree about Roman Reigns in the first 3 months of the year. After that I've had no problems with how he's been pushed.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: Most Overrated

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:14 am

cbacon87 wrote:I haven't kept up with NOAH strongly enough to know, but is there any way of telling if NOAH crowds actively didn't want the Suzuki-gun angle to happen and they should have pulled the plug on it, or it's just NOAH's too far gone and unless it's KENTA it doesn't matter?

I guess the Nagata run worked, but I don't know where NOAH and it's fanbase really stands this year compared to then. Also with Suzuki, you can make the arguement of "if not him then who", but again that's not a factor if it's clear NOAH fans were actively rejecting him and the storyline.
NOAH attendance dropped from the prior year. It was a case of the old school NOAH fans not liking the angle. They drew better with Nagata on top the year before, but it's not like they were some sort of raging success. NOAH has been struggling for years.

My personal take on it is that they tried something bold and it didn't work, but what they were doing previous wasn't working either, so bad attendance dropping 10% - 20% or whatever is still bad attendance, and status quo was getting them nowhere. If the idea is to attempt to create new fans long term at the expense of losing existing fans short term, then to me they should stick with it (and it appears they will). So perhaps it is unfair to blame or punish Suzuki from that standpoint, I don't know. I do know this thread has me rethinking my position on both Suzuki & Reigns.

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DylanZero
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Re: Most Overrated

Post by DylanZero » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:00 am

I've skimmed some of the regular shows from the last two years and it doesn't tell a pretty tale in terms of percentages for a supporter but I can say in general NOAH was better than most promotions in 2014, one of the few that regularly did well at Korakuen Hall as well. In addition the most important point is they'd show growth consistently which was a very important reason I can't get behind the "they had to do something different" argument. They close 2015 with a nearly 50% drop in attendance from 2014 for December's big show and embarrassingly getting out drawn by quality, but very very small promotion GUTS World. For a reasonable but incomplete even in context sample size here's a look at big shows here's how they stack up with Nagata/Marufuji compared to this year in terms of what I've deduced as big shows or those that had a title match: (Again in 2014 from my limited look the numbers for "non-big shows" looked mostly positive especially compared to 2015 but any of you can delve deeper if you wish to be safe):

December
2015: 3,200 (Marufuji/Suzuki)
2014: 5,800 (Sugiura/Marufuji)

Global League Final (Not a title match but a good indicator of fan interest)
2015: 1,565
2014: 1,850

September:
2014: 1,800 (Marufuji/MAYBACH) (Technically an Onita cross promote)
2015: 2,800 (Suzuki/Sugiura)

July
2015: 1,805 (Takayama/Sugiura)
2014: 6,200 (Marufuji/Nagata)

Misawa Memorial Night (Again not technically a title match show but it is an indicator of general fan interest)
2015: 1,380
2014: 1,900

May:
2014: 2,000 (Nagata/Yone)
2015: 3,500 (Marufuji/Suzuki)

April:
2014: 1,500 (Nagata/MAYBACH) (A better match than you would think considering Nagata's opponent. Great carry job.)
2015: No title match

March:
2015: 6,000
2014: 8,000

...I'm sure you can figure who I would say to vote for for this award. :lol: That said, I don't think the company's in danger of closing or anything and there are sometimes other reasons for attendance that I am too tired to look at at 3am but has been stated many a time before so don't take these numbers as gospel. Just something to consider.

My opinion is that the angle was okay because it would draw NJPW fans who had formed an unfair narrative of NOAH based on early 2013-2011 in and get a chance to look at the very strong Junior and above average tag scene they had. After the first show in March I knew exactly how this was going to play out and it would fail miserably. They have had better shows now and in September admittedly and hopefully that will have a positive effect. The fact that they only had confidence in a marquee match like Suzuki/Takayama to run such a small building for it is pretty damning evidence though. The loss to GUTS is inexcusable. And if things do tick when Suzuki gets depushed as we're closer to then that will be even worse on his résumé.
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Chismo
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Re: Most Overrated

Post by Chismo » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:46 am

Your assumption is NOAH gives correct numbers, which has never been the case historically, and especially is not the case now. They inflate numbers even more than Dragon Gate.

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Re: Most Overrated

Post by DylanZero » Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:26 pm

Chismo wrote:Your assumption is NOAH gives correct numbers, which has never been the case historically, and especially is not the case now. They inflate numbers even more than Dragon Gate.
I never made that assumption, just that it hasn't changed any. The exact numbers aren't important since they're all inflated. What is important is things are much worse now than then, which is a fact.
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Re: Most Overrated

Post by Robareid » Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:53 pm

What if things changed after Bushiroad takeover.

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DylanZero
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Re: Most Overrated

Post by DylanZero » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:50 pm

Robareid wrote:What if things changed after Bushiroad takeover.
I haven't had enough interest in NOAH to talk to anybody in the right circles recently but at last check they hadn't and it was earlier this year so I'd doubt that. I might see what I can dig up at some point at a less busy time but to be honest just looking at the crowds can tell you things have taken a turn, and not for the positive. It's like saying the numbers are worked...it's not exactly breaking news here. :lol:

And also "Take over" is a very large, but unfortunately popular stretch but that's an entirely different issue.

EDIT: I may have to eat some crow. Now keep in mind this is far from official but I did go ahead ask someone who I trust and has sources but said NOAH, AJPW and others don't work their numbers as much anymore as the lower state of business is more generally accepted. Now that said, things are down from last year and just personally as a longtime fan regardless of who says it I can't possibly believe a Japanese wrestling company being honest, but it does make me want to take the time to investigate a bit more. Until that day comes I'm going to have to back off the ol' Suzuki burial train (business-wise, I'll never be a fan of what they brought personally, also another story) for a little while until I feel a bit more comfortable. Still, like I said, him and SZKG had a negative effect on business and the fanbase, there's simply no doubt about that. It just might not be AS BAD as I thought.
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Jeff Hawkins
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Re: Most Overrated

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:02 pm

The Fray Movement wrote:
Jeff Hawkins wrote:I know this gives me heat, but ZSJ
He's pushed to the top of the card almost everywhere he goes and seems to be a hit among most fan bases he performs in front of. I'm not the biggest ZSJ fan but he's far from "Most Overrated" by the Observer definition.
no you're right, by the Observer definition.

I just think "best in the world" when lacking in a major component of being best in the world. But I'm being nitpicky and have sought absolution after this weekend's PWG

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Re: Most Overrated

Post by greenmanRD » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:03 pm

Lawsoncomedy wrote:Big Show is clearly #1 to me. In that he beat up guys like Dolph Ziggler and Cesaro a whole bunch. Kane got main events, sure. But at least he lost a lot. Also, in many segments he was quite good. I feel Kane earned his TV time more than Show. And Show barely ever loses. Even Ryback couldn't pin him on a PPV. Dean Ambrose couldn't beat him. It's enraging.

I don't agree about Charlotte at all. Honestly to me she was under pushed, in that rather than come in on her first night and beat Nikki for the title and establish a new reign, we had all this meticulous build and nonsense. That would've gotten this "Revolution" over more than what they did. I think voting for Nikki Bella makes way more sense, her title reign went forever.

And I'd only agree about Roman Reigns in the first 3 months of the year. After that I've had no problems with how he's been pushed.
Big Show jobbed a ton this year I believe. I think he only won like a handful of matches from the WM Andre Battle Royal victory to the Lesnar match at MSG.

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Re: Most Overrated

Post by wac » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:13 am

Jeff Hawkins wrote:
The Fray Movement wrote:
Jeff Hawkins wrote:I know this gives me heat, but ZSJ
He's pushed to the top of the card almost everywhere he goes and seems to be a hit among most fan bases he performs in front of. I'm not the biggest ZSJ fan but he's far from "Most Overrated" by the Observer definition.
no you're right, by the Observer definition.

I just think "best in the world" when lacking in a major component of being best in the world. But I'm being nitpicky and have sought absolution after this weekend's PWG
Which component?

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Jeff Hawkins
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Re: Most Overrated

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:58 pm

selling

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Re: Most Overrated

Post by phenom951 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:01 pm

While I STILL don't get the hype about Finn Balor he did have a great 2015 so I'm gonna go with Roman. I've heard far too much praise for him this year as a worker. He's improved by leaps and bounds than he was at the start of the year but I wouldn't even call him a top 10 worker in that company and top 20 if we include NXT.

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Re: Most Overrated

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:20 pm

phenom951 wrote:While I STILL don't get the hype about Finn Balor he did have a great 2015 so I'm gonna go with Roman. I've heard far too much praise for him this year as a worker. He's improved by leaps and bounds than he was at the start of the year but I wouldn't even call him a top 10 worker in that company and top 20 if we include NXT.
There are people who consider him Top 20 in the WORLD, which is so absurd I can't even be bothered to argue.

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Re: Most Overrated

Post by phenom951 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:27 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
phenom951 wrote:While I STILL don't get the hype about Finn Balor he did have a great 2015 so I'm gonna go with Roman. I've heard far too much praise for him this year as a worker. He's improved by leaps and bounds than he was at the start of the year but I wouldn't even call him a top 10 worker in that company and top 20 if we include NXT.
There are people who consider him Top 20 in the WORLD, which is so absurd I can't even be bothered to argue.
If you look up and down at the last 5 Korakuen Hall NJPW shows, you could probably find 20 wrestlers on one of those cards alone who are better workers than Roman.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: Most Overrated

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:33 pm

phenom951 wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:
phenom951 wrote:While I STILL don't get the hype about Finn Balor he did have a great 2015 so I'm gonna go with Roman. I've heard far too much praise for him this year as a worker. He's improved by leaps and bounds than he was at the start of the year but I wouldn't even call him a top 10 worker in that company and top 20 if we include NXT.
There are people who consider him Top 20 in the WORLD, which is so absurd I can't even be bothered to argue.
If you look up and down at the last 5 Korakuen Hall NJPW shows, you could probably find 20 wrestlers on one of those cards alone who are better workers than Roman.
There are several rosters that have 20 better workers than Roman, including his own.

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