WWE NXT 2016

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powerfulmgp
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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by powerfulmgp » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:16 pm

Thank you sir.

How did the three-way come off with Young swapped in for Aires?

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Jeff Hawkins
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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:30 pm

powerfulmgp wrote:Thank you sir.

How did the three-way come off with Young swapped in for Aires?
I'd say the roles would be virtually identical with Young being interchanged between the two in comedy/occasional badass spots. Young got enough offense in to not be a geek, but it was always to break tension of Joe/Nakamura

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:38 pm

Since it happened on the other side of the ring, and I was on floor level and they never left up the ramp, apparently I missed the Revival interfering in the DIY-AOP match.

I never saw them, which made the results baffling to me

But your finals are
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ODonnell
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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by ODonnell » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:54 pm

....it's going to die a death in Toronto.
Am I crazy or is that Vince McMahon levels of "we're doing it whether they want it or not"


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Jeff Hawkins
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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:08 pm

current NXT has lost quite a bit of the charm of a year or two ago

it's good, just not "magic"

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by achillesforever6 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:46 pm

I think in my opinion the
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It seems like NXT is really suffering from being too big and not willing to have competitive matches on TV because they want every indy star they got to have long winning streaks against jobbers.

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by powerfulmgp » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:22 pm

Jeff Hawkins wrote:current NXT has lost quite a bit of the charm of a year or two ago

it's good, just not "magic"
There's going to be hot and cold periods, but I do agree that it's missing something now. It's not for a lack of bodies either, at least on the men's side. Still feeling the loss of Ryan Ward?

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:31 pm

powerfulmgp wrote:
Jeff Hawkins wrote:current NXT has lost quite a bit of the charm of a year or two ago

it's good, just not "magic"
There's going to be hot and cold periods, but I do agree that it's missing something now. It's not for a lack of bodies either, at least on the men's side. Still feeling the loss of Ryan Ward?
depth and personality. The Horsewomen era, combined with the ascent of the tag division (Dusty tournament), and a fairly strong NXT title picture at the time did wonders for a week to week product leading to big events. You could limit "noob" matches to one a week, and even then it was stuff like Bull/Corbin.

Guys like Roode and Aries have good matches, but they lack a certain emotional connection of Owens/Zayn, for example.

Joe's doing strong work on the stick but it feels like they never take a next step with him.

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by Garuda » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:25 pm

I was going to write a big thing in this week's NXT recap about it, but I agree that NXT is having an identity crisis. And it isn't necessarily about the division between the indie darlings and the Performance Center initiates. It's because of the shape and the process of NXT has changed fundamentally in the last year.

NXT is essentially a spinoff - and a spinoff, ideally, has a new take on a winning creative formula. Even at its worst the winning WWE formula is still simulated sports. They're the major leagues of a fictional sport, and we enjoy watching some rise, some fall, and the storylines and rivalries therin. Plus soap opera elements, natch. And I don't mean to explain the very obvious, but it's worth establishing that baseline.

NXT is the spinoff, and their fresh take on the WWE formula is to establish a fictional feeder system. And more specifically, NXT found its greatest creative paydirt by specializing in the sports storyline of "promising future stars coming into their own." It was mentioned on the flagship last week how hot that concept is to people at present. I'd argue that a portion of that heat comes from the "midcard sea" of the current-era WWE product leaving that creative itch unscratched to an unprecedented degree. People AREN'T seeing up and coming talent in the modern WWE product, so the response to it in NXT has been even bigger.

But either way NXT sort of had a sense of motion to it, where the main product felt, and continues to feel, completely static. It was the counterpoint to that nameless WWE malaise where nothing ever changes creatively.

Now I've gone too long in theory, let me make my case: What are the two longest, grandest, most successful storylines in NXT history? Might be arguable, but it doesn't feel that way to me.

1) Sami Zayn's NXT career, from Cesaro to Neville to Nakamura.

2) The Women's Revolution

Those two through-lines have generated the most emotion and fan investment hands down. And all though it feels like it's beginning to stall now, the NXT Tag Renaissance starting with last year's Dusty Classic up to the present has had a smaller but similar energy to it. DIY and The Revival and Alpha brought the NXT division to life after a long death. It didn't peak high enough to be placed among the other two, but it's worth mentioning.

But these weren't just quality storylines; they played on that meta-narrative that NXT was the FUTURE. Sami Zayn proved himself against Cesaro, then did the lovable underdog act right up until he won the title at R-Evolution. That still has to be the biggest moment in NXT history. And not only did he lose his title soon thereafter, but he got injured and lost his main roster spot. He comes back for the title, fails, and then goes out with Shinsuke Nakamura on the eve of his Wrestlemania debut.

It's the greatest example, and microcosm, of all of NXT storytelling. A talented young wrestler starts at the bottom, works, scraps, eventually gets there, stays on top, then moves on - putting over the next wave of talent - and ascends to main roster Valhalla for true greatness (not that that really happens, but...). It's a complete story, a satisfying one, and that template has been the entire creative engine of NXT for years now.

The Women's Revolution is the same deal, just even more broad and mixed with reality. People loved these talented women, wanted to see them strive, succeed, and make remake the division topside in a new image. Once again it's not just the talent or the individual storyline, it's the creative shape of every storyline in character on NXT. These were just the purest forms of it. Just as the best storyline include reality, the reality of NXT's feeder-system nature co-operated with their storylines in a way that hooked fans to a profound degree.

I think the reason NXT has lost most of its magic in the present tense is because NXT has changed into something else, and is totally incompatible with its creative structure. What feels "off" about NXT is that the sense of motion is completely gone.

People don't enter the card, rise, and exit it anymore. It worked because the main roster was looking for new talent, but those slots are filled up: now the whole damned sewer is backed up. Two years ago Nakamura and Joe would've been long gone; now, they are booked in a holding pattern feud at the card's summit that causes a gridlock that goes all the way down.

Add in the phenomenon of "NXT lifers:" talent that management has no intention of ever moving to the main roster. Wrestlers like Austin Aries, Roode, Asuka, and, it seems, like Nakamura himself. They're great talents but they add to NXT's churn problems. Counterintuitvely, NXT thrived on its talent churn. Now no one leaves and they can't figure out how to book that meaningfully. At Toronto we'll see Roode take on Dillinger: Two wrong-side-of-thirty-five wrestlers who have little chance of moving anywhere meaningful on the card, much less up to the main roster.

At the very least NXT used to benefit from a clarity of booking: since everyone was going up, then going out, they could figure out how to make each talent pop and map out their storylines. Now no one's going anywhere, and it doesn't help that NXT has lost its sweet spot of talent: actual promising young talent. They've so much of it out that we're stuck with the current stratified roster: older directionless indie talent with no main roster future and unpromising green Performance Center types who also lack any bright future in their careers to build towards.

IN CONCLUSION

Point is that NXT has changed profoundly, and the promotion itself hasn't figured out how to cope, or maybe even that they need to cope. NXT has stopped being a pipeline: it is a clogged pipe that occaisionally trickles. And if they want to make their promotion its own roster-stable indie promotion that seasons their Performance Center talent along the way, great! But they need to shift their creative and presentational aspects to reflect the new reality.

Stop treating everyone like the next big thing and the hot young movers-and-shakers if no one is going anywhere, even within its own traffic-jammed card. I think there is a way forward to succeed, but it involves them abondoning a now-incompatible creative formula and finding a new way. Or even an old way - booking it like a static wrestling promotion instead of one that's designed for the creative shape and talent churn of a feeder promotion.

Wish I could organize this more, but my break's almost over. Hope I made my case strong enough to be seaworthy in the time I had.

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by Garuda » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Also, on the Dusty Finals:
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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by mlev76 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:07 pm

Garuda wrote:I was going to write a big thing in this week's NXT recap about it, but I agree that NXT is having an identity crisis. And it isn't necessarily about the division between the indie darlings and the Performance Center initiates. It's because of the shape and the process of NXT has changed fundamentally in the last year.

NXT is essentially a spinoff - and a spinoff, ideally, has a new take on a winning creative formula. Even at its worst the winning WWE formula is still simulated sports. They're the major leagues of a fictional sport, and we enjoy watching some rise, some fall, and the storylines and rivalries therin. Plus soap opera elements, natch. And I don't mean to explain the very obvious, but it's worth establishing that baseline.

NXT is the spinoff, and their fresh take on the WWE formula is to establish a fictional feeder system. And more specifically, NXT found its greatest creative paydirt by specializing in the sports storyline of "promising future stars coming into their own." It was mentioned on the flagship last week how hot that concept is to people at present. I'd argue that a portion of that heat comes from the "midcard sea" of the current-era WWE product leaving that creative itch unscratched to an unprecedented degree. People AREN'T seeing up and coming talent in the modern WWE product, so the response to it in NXT has been even bigger.

But either way NXT sort of had a sense of motion to it, where the main product felt, and continues to feel, completely static. It was the counterpoint to that nameless WWE malaise where nothing ever changes creatively.

Now I've gone too long in theory, let me make my case: What are the two longest, grandest, most successful storylines in NXT history? Might be arguable, but it doesn't feel that way to me.

1) Sami Zayn's NXT career, from Cesaro to Neville to Nakamura.

2) The Women's Revolution

Those two through-lines have generated the most emotion and fan investment hands down. And all though it feels like it's beginning to stall now, the NXT Tag Renaissance starting with last year's Dusty Classic up to the present has had a smaller but similar energy to it. DIY and The Revival and Alpha brought the NXT division to life after a long death. It didn't peak high enough to be placed among the other two, but it's worth mentioning.

But these weren't just quality storylines; they played on that meta-narrative that NXT was the FUTURE. Sami Zayn proved himself against Cesaro, then did the lovable underdog act right up until he won the title at R-Evolution. That still has to be the biggest moment in NXT history. And not only did he lose his title soon thereafter, but he got injured and lost his main roster spot. He comes back for the title, fails, and then goes out with Shinsuke Nakamura on the eve of his Wrestlemania debut.

It's the greatest example, and microcosm, of all of NXT storytelling. A talented young wrestler starts at the bottom, works, scraps, eventually gets there, stays on top, then moves on - putting over the next wave of talent - and ascends to main roster Valhalla for true greatness (not that that really happens, but...). It's a complete story, a satisfying one, and that template has been the entire creative engine of NXT for years now.

The Women's Revolution is the same deal, just even more broad and mixed with reality. People loved these talented women, wanted to see them strive, succeed, and make remake the division topside in a new image. Once again it's not just the talent or the individual storyline, it's the creative shape of every storyline in character on NXT. These were just the purest forms of it. Just as the best storyline include reality, the reality of NXT's feeder-system nature co-operated with their storylines in a way that hooked fans to a profound degree.

I think the reason NXT has lost most of its magic in the present tense is because NXT has changed into something else, and is totally incompatible with its creative structure. What feels "off" about NXT is that the sense of motion is completely gone.

People don't enter the card, rise, and exit it anymore. It worked because the main roster was looking for new talent, but those slots are filled up: now the whole damned sewer is backed up. Two years ago Nakamura and Joe would've been long gone; now, they are booked in a holding pattern feud at the card's summit that causes a gridlock that goes all the way down.

Add in the phenomenon of "NXT lifers:" talent that management has no intention of ever moving to the main roster. Wrestlers like Austin Aries, Roode, Asuka, and, it seems, like Nakamura himself. They're great talents but they add to NXT's churn problems. Counterintuitvely, NXT thrived on its talent churn. Now no one leaves and they can't figure out how to book that meaningfully. At Toronto we'll see Roode take on Dillinger: Two wrong-side-of-thirty-five wrestlers who have little chance of moving anywhere meaningful on the card, much less up to the main roster.

At the very least NXT used to benefit from a clarity of booking: since everyone was going up, then going out, they could figure out how to make each talent pop and map out their storylines. Now no one's going anywhere, and it doesn't help that NXT has lost its sweet spot of talent: actual promising young talent. They've so much of it out that we're stuck with the current stratified roster: older directionless indie talent with no main roster future and unpromising green Performance Center types who also lack any bright future in their careers to build towards.

IN CONCLUSION

Point is that NXT has changed profoundly, and the promotion itself hasn't figured out how to cope, or maybe even that they need to cope. NXT has stopped being a pipeline: it is a clogged pipe that occaisionally trickles. And if they want to make their promotion its own roster-stable indie promotion that seasons their Performance Center talent along the way, great! But they need to shift their creative and presentational aspects to reflect the new reality.

Stop treating everyone like the next big thing and the hot young movers-and-shakers if no one is going anywhere, even within its own traffic-jammed card. I think there is a way forward to succeed, but it involves them abondoning a now-incompatible creative formula and finding a new way. Or even an old way - booking it like a static wrestling promotion instead of one that's designed for the creative shape and talent churn of a feeder promotion.

Wish I could organize this more, but my break's almost over. Hope I made my case strong enough to be seaworthy in the time I had.
If I may offer a counter view...

You make a point about certain wrestlers-Asuka, Aries, Roode and Nakamura-being NXT lifers and the lack of progress being an issue. It is odd that you list those four because besides Asuka-who debuted about a year ago-those names have been in the company about 6-7 months. When you compare their tenures to many of the stars of the "NXT glory period," that is a relatively short amount of time.

I think the issue is actually the opposite-much of the long standing NXT names have left the brand in the last two years leaving behind a shell of the former roster.

Consider the following:

1) Raw and Smackdown each have 12 roster members who were on the NXT roster at some point since January 2015. That conversely means 23 wrestlers (Corey Graves is included in that equation so he's a double dip) have left at NXT in that time.

2) Consider NXT Brooklyn, probably an initial peak of the brand. On that show, between the network special and the taping that night, 32 performers appeared. Here is a breakdown of where they are now:

Raw: 9
Smackdown: 12
NXT:7
Out of company/Inactive: 4

Less than a 1/4 of the participants from a show 15 months ago are left.

3) Even more recently, consider Takeover: Dallas. 12 wrestlers appeared on the special. Here's where they are now:

Raw: 3
Smackdown: 3
NXT: 6

Less churn, but half the people on a show 7 months ago are gone.

4) Finally, compare this year's Takeover: Brooklyn to last year's. 14 performers appeared. Of them, 8 of them were not on the NXT roster at the time of the first Takeover: Brooklyn and only 5 had debuted on NXT TV prior to the show.

My conclusion: NXT is in a rebuilding period. I know people are anxious to get their favorite NXT talent up to the main roster ASAP, but the reality is the brand was very demonstrably drained of talent over the last two years and if it is to remain a valuable asset, it needs to be rebuilt talent wise.

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by Garuda » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:49 pm

I mean it comes down to you calling the things I brought up insignificantly temporary.

Maybe they will be! Hope they are. I don't necessarily share the optimism, because the way I see it, which is how I described it, is that a change has occurred that I don't think will simply return to the status quo with time. Absolutely could, not calling you wrong, but I don't see it that way.

I'm not sure I was clear enough in my post, but my thought was about how many of the "indie star" caste have been reported to be NXT lifers. They're not going up, and since the main roster is as it is, I think the period of regular new talent injections is going to continue to be dramatically small post-draft. So there is a new class of people who are intended to stay, combined with the fact that the main roster appetite is pretty much filled for the forseeable, in contrast to before when they were getting promoted with some regularity. I think we've got a long period of boring stasis ahead of us in NXT, and I'm guessing it won't ever be back to the way it was just one year ago. Doesn't mean its doomed to suck. ONly means that even a return to form would require a new normal.

Again, perhaps it's just a matter of me thinking it's a permanent shift and you thinking that it's just a low period that will be recharged, in time, to its normal state. Could be; I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by mlev76 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:31 am

I'm not calling you wrong either, but the issue that I get from watching week in and week out is new characters getting over. And it's not because they aren't being presented correctly or the format of the show has changed; it's because there are so many new or relatively new characters all vying for attention and direction. It's my hope that as the Toronto Takeover takes shape, this will all be sorted out and the right people will be put in the right direction.

I think those people you mentioned will not likely going up to the main roster any time soon, but despite reports that they are earmarked for NXT, talent always wins out. All four of them have main event appeal and that transcends brand/level. I agree we'll probably not such a huge influx of talent from NXT going forward without people being fired, quitting or getting injured. Let them do great things on NXT until there's a good spot on the main roster.

I guess I'm not really seeing any shift at all but for the changes to the roster. Granted, the women's division is significantly depleted compared to this time last year, but I'm optimistic that some of the new women can rise up.

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:24 pm

mlev76 wrote:but despite reports that they are earmarked for NXT, talent always wins out.
Has company policy changed :)

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Re: WWE NXT 2016

Post by ODonnell » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:58 am

Holy Shit Shane Thorne's drop kick. Such a nice change of pace to see a match on the road in front of a big hot crowd.

I'm assuming "The Return" promo that featured the crowd chanting NXT was for the Drifter, almost poking fun at people hating him?

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