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F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:28 pm
by supersonic
As an aside about Lucha Underground: The "regular TV" trappings have led to their fans treating it like it's a prestige drama, and it's made said fans insufferable, worse than ROH fans ever were back in the day. That casts a shadow over the enjoyability of the show
No it doesn't.

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:02 pm
by Bix
mlev76 wrote:
Bix wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
Point is Jim's argument about the purity of wrestling and it being real is hogwash. Its also not like he has steered away from it himself, from commentating on this to wrestling a Ninja Turtle in SMW.

He really should stick to discussing old wrestling as he is usually entertaining and knowledgeable. He hasn't contributed anything to modern wrestling in years, clearly hates it and has worn out his welcome across the board.
Again, I'm not sure you understand what that video is.

When VCI put out the Wrestling Gold set on DVD (as well as some OVW and SMW stuff when Jim still owned the rights), they had Dave and Jim record a second commentary track to give historical context to the matches. One of the matches was the above, and someone ripped it to YouTube with the secondary commentary track included.

"He really should stick to discussing old wrestling as he is usually entertaining and knowledgeable." So...yeah.

Also, you and just about everyone misses his point: When he talks about realism he just means easy/willing suspension of disbelief. Everyone has always known it's not on the up and up. But a little mystery and plausible deniability went a long way. There are levels, of course, and certain things worked better in certain territories. Just maintain an internal logic and don't be too ridiculous.

It's different today because the changes in communication meant the genie would be out of the bottle in a big way no matter what (the Scientology OT Level stuff has been online for what, 15+ years now? and that's WAY more protected than kayfabe), so you have to roll with the punches. I'm not philosophically opposed to what Lucha Underground is trying to do in theory (use pro wrestling as a medium for other kinds of storytelling; in their case it's a weird wacky pulpy fantasy), but they're also trying to have it both ways with the formatting of the TV show (it goes back and forth between a genre drama and a wrestling show), how their contracts are structured, talking about touring, etc.

As an aside about Lucha Underground: The "regular TV" trappings have led to their fans treating it like it's a prestige drama, and it's made said fans insufferable, worse than ROH fans ever were back in the day. That casts a shadow over the enjoyability of the show, like with Justin LaBar's weird troll article for TribLive from last week; http://triblive.com/sports/prowrestling ... -wrestling: "The depth of a character like Prince Puma is too much, and we need to keep it simple with characters like the Dirty White Boy?"

I think Jim's issues with current wrestling would be different if he was more technologically inclined. There'd be a lot more for him to check out more easily, including CMLL, where the booking style and some of the work is more up his alley. But he's admittedly terrible with it and would rather just watch his old tapes.
I am quite aware of what Wrestling Gold is and was as well as what Cornette's role with it was. It's really not very complicated and easy to understand.
Then seriously, what the heck were you talking about? He was giving historical commentary on on match that was part of a much larger DVD set, not booking a wrestling bear in any of his promotions.
"Willing suspension of disbelief." Please explain to me how it is easier to believe a bear and a human can have an organized wrestling fight than some of what we see on LU.
Because it's an actual bear that has actually been trained to wrestle?
They're not trying to have it both ways since there's no one out there saying "Hey, we want you to believe this is real now. But, now, when Drago is spitting fire or Aero Star is flying, that is fake." It really is a tv show about a wrestling promotion right now which just so happens to be consumed mostly by rabid pro wrestling fans and not many others.
So I'm curious: Are you judging it by the standards of pro wrestling shows in 2016 or genre shows in 2016?
I think Jim's problems with the current product are related in part to personal taste, but also related to his bitterness of now being completely on the outside looking in.
Is this that thing where everyone pretends that he didn't save his money and didn't work for ROH for free for an extended period of time to help them grow?

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:12 pm
by Bix
kjharris wrote:
Bix wrote:As an aside about Lucha Underground: The "regular TV" trappings have led to their fans treating it like it's a prestige drama, and it's made said fans insufferable, worse than ROH fans ever were back in the day. That casts a shadow over the enjo
yability of the show, like with Justin LaBar's weird troll article for TribLive from last week; http://triblive.com/sports/prowrestling ... -wrestling: "The depth of a character like Prince Puma is too much, and we need to keep it simple with characters like the Dirty White Boy?"
Not sure how you can complain about people who react to a troll by responding back in kind, in much politer fashion than the troll's original rant.
No, I'm complaining about him treating LU as high art. :)
supersonic wrote:
As an aside about Lucha Underground: The "regular TV" trappings have led to their fans treating it like it's a prestige drama, and it's made said fans insufferable, worse than ROH fans ever were back in the day. That casts a shadow over the enjoyability of the show
No it doesn't.
Someone's forgetting/not aware of how bad ROH fans were back in the day.

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:19 pm
by supersonic
I don't waste time worrying about fanbase mentality when watching a wrestling promotion.

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:51 pm
by Bix
supersonic wrote:I don't waste time worrying about fanbase mentality when watching a wrestling promotion.
It's not like I haven't tried not to. :)

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:05 pm
by mlev76
Bix wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
Bix wrote: Again, I'm not sure you understand what that video is.

When VCI put out the Wrestling Gold set on DVD (as well as some OVW and SMW stuff when Jim still owned the rights), they had Dave and Jim record a second commentary track to give historical context to the matches. One of the matches was the above, and someone ripped it to YouTube with the secondary commentary track included.

"He really should stick to discussing old wrestling as he is usually entertaining and knowledgeable." So...yeah.

Also, you and just about everyone misses his point: When he talks about realism he just means easy/willing suspension of disbelief. Everyone has always known it's not on the up and up. But a little mystery and plausible deniability went a long way. There are levels, of course, and certain things worked better in certain territories. Just maintain an internal logic and don't be too ridiculous.

It's different today because the changes in communication meant the genie would be out of the bottle in a big way no matter what (the Scientology OT Level stuff has been online for what, 15+ years now? and that's WAY more protected than kayfabe), so you have to roll with the punches. I'm not philosophically opposed to what Lucha Underground is trying to do in theory (use pro wrestling as a medium for other kinds of storytelling; in their case it's a weird wacky pulpy fantasy), but they're also trying to have it both ways with the formatting of the TV show (it goes back and forth between a genre drama and a wrestling show), how their contracts are structured, talking about touring, etc.

As an aside about Lucha Underground: The "regular TV" trappings have led to their fans treating it like it's a prestige drama, and it's made said fans insufferable, worse than ROH fans ever were back in the day. That casts a shadow over the enjoyability of the show, like with Justin LaBar's weird troll article for TribLive from last week; http://triblive.com/sports/prowrestling ... -wrestling: "The depth of a character like Prince Puma is too much, and we need to keep it simple with characters like the Dirty White Boy?"

I think Jim's issues with current wrestling would be different if he was more technologically inclined. There'd be a lot more for him to check out more easily, including CMLL, where the booking style and some of the work is more up his alley. But he's admittedly terrible with it and would rather just watch his old tapes.
I am quite aware of what Wrestling Gold is and was as well as what Cornette's role with it was. It's really not very complicated and easy to understand.
Then seriously, what the heck were you talking about? He was giving historical commentary on on match that was part of a much larger DVD set, not booking a wrestling bear in any of his promotions.
"Willing suspension of disbelief." Please explain to me how it is easier to believe a bear and a human can have an organized wrestling fight than some of what we see on LU.
Because it's an actual bear that has actually been trained to wrestle?
They're not trying to have it both ways since there's no one out there saying "Hey, we want you to believe this is real now. But, now, when Drago is spitting fire or Aero Star is flying, that is fake." It really is a tv show about a wrestling promotion right now which just so happens to be consumed mostly by rabid pro wrestling fans and not many others.
So I'm curious: Are you judging it by the standards of pro wrestling shows in 2016 or genre shows in 2016?
I think Jim's problems with the current product are related in part to personal taste, but also related to his bitterness of now being completely on the outside looking in.
Is this that thing where everyone pretends that he didn't save his money and didn't work for ROH for free for an extended period of time to help them grow?
1) Cornette has taken a holier than thou attitude to respecting the business and keeping it a legitimate sport. And yet, he has been a part of or involved himself with situations that clearly do not respect wrestling as a legitimate sport.

2) "Because it's an actual bear that has actually been trained to wrestle?"

Really? Of all the carney nonsense in wrestling, having a FUCKING BEAR wrestle a person has to be the most carney.

3) How do I judge it? By how entertained I am by it. I judge the matches as actual matches and the rest as being part of a pulp serial drama. I don't see where the issue is.

4) It's not about money, it's about Cornette's anger at his view of wrestling not being the prevailing view and his attitude/behavior keeping him from sharing/promoting his view. He has admitted openly to being "addicted" to the business.

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:06 pm
by BillThompson
Bix, I like you, but man, your continued attempts to defend an obvious troll, racist, homophobe, Islamophobe, misogynist prick in Jim Cornette are very sad.

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:41 pm
by Hagan
The whole talk about "how much money we made back in the day" drives me nuts. Lotta dudes making a good living in wrestling today with guaranteed contracts, merchandise, royalties etc and not only in WWE.

There is a lot of valid criticism of modern wrestling. Guys not making enough money probably isn't one of them.

I assume Cornette doesn't cash those WWE royalty checks he gets every quarter, either?

The big issue with Cornette, like Jim Ross, is they've attempted to pander to a certain fanbase for years as being smarter than the idiots running WWE. The only benefit of their podcasts is it's shown how backwards and regressive they are about promoting wrestling.

Cornette praised TNA to high heaven, until he was off the payroll. He praised ROH's booking to the moon, until he was off the payroll. He's just your typical carny worker.

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:48 pm
by rovert
BillThompson wrote:Bix, I like you, but man, your continued attempts to defend an obvious troll, racist, homophobe, Islamophobe, misogynist prick in Jim Cornette are very sad.

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:33 pm
by Rich Kraetsch
Hagan wrote:The whole talk about "how much money we made back in the day" drives me nuts.
I always find this point ironic since so many of his peers spend their free time traveling to po-dunk towns across the country to sign pieces of paper for scraps of money.

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:52 pm
by mlev76
Hagan wrote:The whole talk about "how much money we made back in the day" drives me nuts. Lotta dudes making a good living in wrestling today with guaranteed contracts, merchandise, royalties etc and not only in WWE.

There is a lot of valid criticism of modern wrestling. Guys not making enough money probably isn't one of them.

I assume Cornette doesn't cash those WWE royalty checks he gets every quarter, either?

The big issue with Cornette, like Jim Ross, is they've attempted to pander to a certain fanbase for years as being smarter than the idiots running WWE. The only benefit of their podcasts is it's shown how backwards and regressive they are about promoting wrestling.

Cornette praised TNA to high heaven, until he was off the payroll. He praised ROH's booking to the moon, until he was off the payroll. He's just your typical carny worker.
They are part of the Hate Watch/"Back in my day..." culture that has become insufferable. Like, I get the reasons why people dislike Raw, WWE, etc., but 1) it is tired and boring hearing the same shit week in and week out; and 2) if you can't find good wrestling that you enjoy that is modern in 2016, you can find tons of old stuff. Why are you wasting your life hate watching things/bitching/trolling?

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:52 pm
by mlev76
Hagan wrote:The whole talk about "how much money we made back in the day" drives me nuts. Lotta dudes making a good living in wrestling today with guaranteed contracts, merchandise, royalties etc and not only in WWE.

There is a lot of valid criticism of modern wrestling. Guys not making enough money probably isn't one of them.

I assume Cornette doesn't cash those WWE royalty checks he gets every quarter, either?

The big issue with Cornette, like Jim Ross, is they've attempted to pander to a certain fanbase for years as being smarter than the idiots running WWE. The only benefit of their podcasts is it's shown how backwards and regressive they are about promoting wrestling.

Cornette praised TNA to high heaven, until he was off the payroll. He praised ROH's booking to the moon, until he was off the payroll. He's just your typical carny worker.
They are part of the Hate Watch/"Back in my day..." culture that has become insufferable. Like, I get the reasons why people dislike Raw, WWE, etc., but 1) it is tired and boring hearing the same shit week in and week out; and 2) if you can't find good wrestling that you enjoy that is modern in 2016, you can find tons of old stuff. Why are you wasting your life hate watching things/bitching/trolling?

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:54 am
by Ageyev
Got an email offering me a re-sub rate of $3.99 for a month. Has there been anything good of late on the Observer/F4W front?

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:25 am
by BohsJohnny
Ageyev wrote:Got an email offering me a re-sub rate of $3.99 for a month. Has there been anything good of late on the Observer/F4W front?
Yes, Meltzer's 13,000 word piece on the career and retirement of Bryan in the latest Observer is legit one of his best ever.

Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:32 am
by mlev76
BohsJohnny wrote:
Ageyev wrote:Got an email offering me a re-sub rate of $3.99 for a month. Has there been anything good of late on the Observer/F4W front?
Yes, Meltzer's 13,000 word piece on the career and retirement of Bryan in the latest Observer is legit one of his best ever.
Not exactly a good week from the perspective of the actual events, but the Bryan article is amazing and they've been great through all of the coverage of this. Definitely worth 4 bucks