F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

WWE, TNA, and all U.S./Canada based graps talk
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DezWalker
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by DezWalker » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:47 pm

Ferrante207 wrote:
Brandon Howard wrote:
Ferrante207 wrote:I know that Dave is the paper of record and a arbiter of wrestling culture, but I believe it's a slippery slope to expect him to be some sort of Christ-like figure that must atone for all the sins of the graps community.
No one's expecting this, only for rationality and decency.
In my two months as a WON subscriber I've encountered nothing but decency and rational thought from Dave in his podcasting and writing. I've never been to the board, though.
If you want to keep that opinion, you should probably continue to avoid the Board.

Maybe keep off his Twitter as well.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Joe Lanza » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:51 pm

Hobbes wrote: There's a bunch of good people on the F4W forum that barely post.
Isn't this a microcosm of the issue?

I'm hardly a boy scout and far from a liberal progressive. In fact, I have many issues with extreme progressives and eye roll my way through a lot of the stuff I see on wrestling twitter. Pics of pretty women on an off topic forum doesn't offend me, but I can see why the verbiage in some of those polls WOULD be offensive and/or off putting to some, and i'm not going to tell people when they should/shouldn't be offended. I also don't really understand what purpose those threads serve on a pro wrestling board, and again, as most of you know I'm the furthest thing from a prude or a white knight. I think about this board, which I own, and I wouldn't allow a thread where women are rated on a scale from hot to 3 o'clock whore to "I wouldn't fuck her with your dick". What's the point? It probably pushes more people away than it draws, regardless of whether it personally offends me.

While I understand the camp of "don't like it, don't click it", I also understand that by allowing things to go THAT far, that by proxy is what creates the culture that exists on the rest of the "on topic" site.

With all of that said, dave isn't going to care about any of this. dave wants to report on wrestling. I don't know if it's dave's responsibility to be the arbiter of what's socially acceptable on a message board, but as a businessman, I wish I was in a position to be able to throw away whatever fraction of his business he is throwing away (like "Vicky", for example) by allowing some of what goes on there. I don't think the existence of these threads makes dav (or Bryan) a bigot or sexist old man or misogynist monster or any of the other extremes that people like to immediately jump to, and I think things like "OMG do their WIVES know these threads exists?!!?" are eye roll inducing in that you are assuming every woman would be or is offended by such things (they aren't), but I do think at some point they should probably say to themselves, "how does this reflect on us, and how does this effect our business?". You can show a modicum of decency (and business sense) without being a "SJW" or "white knight" or a CUCK.

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powerfulmgp
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by powerfulmgp » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:55 pm

"A Boston Globe article reported that former WWE female star Ashley Massaro, 37, has claimed that in 2006, she was sent by WWE to Kuwait to visit American troops, and she claims she was sexually assaulted at a U.S. military base.

Massaro made the claim as being one of the seven new plaintiffs inn what is now a 59-person class action lawsuit against WWE regarding concussions and health treatment of former performers.

Massaro claimed she was examined by a company physician when she returned, and claimed the doctor reported the incident to WWE executives. She claimed that the officials apologized for their negligence, but persuaded her not to go public or report it to authorities.

If this is accurate, this is a serious claim. It should be noted that Massaro on paper would not make for the world’s greatest plaintiff under normal circumstances. From a pure court case situation the idea of someone who’s past includes reports of her being a high-priced escort and problems with drug addiction, including a 2010 stint in rehab paid for by WWE’s program, going public with a claim from ten years ago could lead to the easy questions of credibility of the claim, especially when you throw in WWE lead attorney Jerry McDevitt."

Wow. What a rabid sexist. :roll:

This whole thing is just another faux outrage witch hunt. I'll never understand it.

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mlev76
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by mlev76 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:58 pm

Dave and Bryan both have the same blind spot: they are loyal to their friends in spite of the terrible things these people say/do. I get it. Life is hard and having people who you like like you back makes it a lot easier. For Dave at least, part of why he is where he is because of those friendships. They allowed him to build a reputation for transparency in an industry completely lacking in it. For Bryan, he clearly relishes being the center of attention...until he doesnt and then he gets extremely pissy and annoying.

Wrestling, as a whole, is full of many shitty people and a few good ones. Should it be a huge surprise that those who cover it as they do have made many, many compromises to achieve some modicum of inner peace?

Message boards bring out the worst in society uniformly. But, I'd rather have the miscreants that populate them busy on their computers and not out in the real world actually doing real harm. That's why I hate when companies censor bigots like Twitter did with a bunch of white supremacists recently. Yes, their views are despicable, but let them speak from their little minor soap boxes and don't turn them into martyrs. If you keep their sandbox small, they can do little real damage.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Joe Lanza » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:59 pm

The "dave is a raging sexist" stuff is utter nonsense, I agree. But we live in times where terms like that are tossed around very irresponsibly, black & white with little room for gray, especially on social media. If you misspeak, are misunderstood, or simply don't toe the line on a certain issue, you are branded with a label, and among some, that label sticks for life.

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powerfulmgp
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by powerfulmgp » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:08 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:The "dave is a raging sexist" stuff is utter nonsense, I agree. But we live in times where terms like that are tossed around very irresponsibly, black & white with little room for gray, especially on social media. If you misspeak, are misunderstood, or simply don't toe the line on a certain issue, you are branded with a label, and among some, that label sticks for life.
I agree. My major gripe is with social media culture in general. People live in their bubble and only subscribe to views which support their own, creating a heavily distorted reality. That is getting wildly off-topic though.

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Ferrante207
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Ferrante207 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:21 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:The "dave is a raging sexist" stuff is utter nonsense, I agree. But we live in times where terms like that are tossed around very irresponsibly, black & white with little room for gray, especially on social media. If you misspeak, are misunderstood, or simply don't toe the line on a certain issue, you are branded with a label, and among some, that label sticks for life.
With the sheer output of words spoken and written the man has, he's bound to say something off or give an improper phrasing. My goose would be cooked in a week or less if I had that much public output.

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Brandon Howard
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Brandon Howard » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:13 pm

I believe none of this stuff exists in a vacuum, that every word uttered in sum defines the norms in wrestling culture and beyond, and that it's reasonable to recognize the ways we can do better. I don't think it's helpful either to label people sexists or imagine Board users as shut-ins or whatever. But I think ignoring the situation if we don't like it, and being like, "Hey, wrestling fans degrade women- no surprise," and accepting that there's a place that harbors that isn't a satisfactory solution, certainly not in the case of the website belonging to the most influential reporter and historian in wrestling history. He should be above that. The likelihood that nothing will be done doesn't change the fact; it only makes it sadder.

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Ferrante207
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Ferrante207 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:34 pm

Agree, we got to do better in graps. I took a look at the board on my lunch break and yeah there is some pretty gross stuff on there. When straight up bros like me and lanza are grossed out you know it's beyond the pale. I'm not sure what melty should do. I also have no clue who the average wrestling fan is. Is the board closer to the average fan than we think?

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mlev76
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by mlev76 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:59 pm

Ferrante207 wrote:Agree, we got to do better in graps. I took a look at the board on my lunch break and yeah there is some pretty gross stuff on there. When straight up bros like me and lanza are grossed out you know it's beyond the pale. I'm not sure what melty should do. I also have no clue who the average wrestling fan is. Is the board closer to the average fan than we think?
I think any message board is closer to the type who incessantly spends their time online for any type of topic and as such, you'll get a larger segment of the dregs of said group no matter where you look.

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ODonnell
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F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by ODonnell » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:12 pm

In regards to the thread title, yes the Observer is worth paying for.

But this....no. Just fucking no.
https://www.patreon.com/WrestlingSheet

Imagine with a straight face making that, and expecting people to donate to the most who gives a fuck scoops around.

"EXCLUSIVE - SCOTT STEINER BUYS A POOL - ABOVE GROUND OR IN GROUND?"

And this coming from the guy that mocked people for paying for wrestling news a few months back.

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Garuda
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Garuda » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:59 pm

Brandon Howard wrote:I believe none of this stuff exists in a vacuum, that every word uttered in sum defines the norms in wrestling culture and beyond, and that it's reasonable to recognize the ways we can do better. I don't think it's helpful either to label people sexists or imagine Board users as shut-ins or whatever. But I think ignoring the situation if we don't like it, and being like, "Hey, wrestling fans degrade women- no surprise," and accepting that there's a place that harbors that isn't a satisfactory solution, certainly not in the case of the website belonging to the most influential reporter and historian in wrestling history. He should be above that. The likelihood that nothing will be done doesn't change the fact; it only makes it sadder.
Perfectly put.

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Jeff Hawkins
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:31 pm

As a mod on the F4w board...the sheer amounts of reporting, bitching, vendettas we get....we do our best to be fair and discuss a lot of these kinds of things

my opinions are my own on that matter and do not speak for anyone involved.

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RobViper13
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by RobViper13 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:14 am

I think it's silly that Dave doesn't release the list of who got into the HOF mid-day to build anticipation for the actual issue coming out later with the #'s & his own comments included. The issue is coming out at night anyways so what would be the harm in releasing the list for subscribers a few hours ahead of time? Just delaying the inevitable by waiting for whoever is in charge of uploading the issue to get around to it. Very old school thinking.
"Whoa is me" - BuzzSawyer

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wac
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by wac » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:49 am

Danielson, Sting, Okerlund, James McLaughlin

Mistico at 30% is a joke

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