F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

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TGD287
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by TGD287 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:05 pm

Ageyev wrote:
mlev76 wrote:Bryan's attitude is seemingly a mixture of martyrdom, lack of gratitude and arrogance at this point. He can still be entertaining sometimes with Vinny, but generally, he seems checked out. My hope, for his sake and the sake of the site, is that he uses his upcoming life change to fade into a management role and leave the workload to others. I know this won't happen, but it would be best for all involved.

There's probably dozens of people who would gladly work for them for free. Rob McCarron's comments don't exactly paint a picture of a good working environment (albeit a virtual/online one).

The Talking Sheet guy had a mini-rant about the difficulty in getting a 2006 back issue of the Observer. Kinda makes Dave look a bit carny. I mean, he actually posted on the Board something to the effect "if you want more shows or changes, tell Bryan you will pay more money". It was about that Lapsed Fan podcast - for some reason it has a following over there and people are lobbying for F4W to pick it up
Well in fairness, it's a fair response. Why bring in people that'll require a noticeable salary that probably won't bring in that many new subscribers? And if you want to argue that it'll make the subscription price acceptable, fine, but they'll never admit it, plus he's saying that to active subscribers that are already paying.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by LanceVonErichFan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:57 pm

Ageyev wrote:
mlev76 wrote:Bryan's attitude is seemingly a mixture of martyrdom, lack of gratitude and arrogance at this point. He can still be entertaining sometimes with Vinny, but generally, he seems checked out. My hope, for his sake and the sake of the site, is that he uses his upcoming life change to fade into a management role and leave the workload to others. I know this won't happen, but it would be best for all involved.

There's probably dozens of people who would gladly work for them for free. Rob McCarron's comments don't exactly paint a picture of a good working environment (albeit a virtual/online one).

The Talking Sheet guy had a mini-rant about the difficulty in getting a 2006 back issue of the Observer. Kinda makes Dave look a bit carny. I mean, he actually posted on the Board something to the effect "if you want more shows or changes, tell Bryan you will pay more money". It was about that Lapsed Fan podcast - for some reason it has a following over there and people are lobbying for F4W to pick it up
What were the specifics of the rant exactly?

Assuming this was on the F4W Board?
Last edited by LanceVonErichFan on Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ageyev
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Ageyev » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:29 pm

LanceVonErichFan wrote:
Ageyev wrote:
mlev76 wrote:Bryan's attitude is seemingly a mixture of martyrdom, lack of gratitude and arrogance at this point. He can still be entertaining sometimes with Vinny, but generally, he seems checked out. My hope, for his sake and the sake of the site, is that he uses his upcoming life change to fade into a management role and leave the workload to others. I know this won't happen, but it would be best for all involved.

There's probably dozens of people who would gladly work for them for free. Rob McCarron's comments don't exactly paint a picture of a good working environment (albeit a virtual/online one).

The Talking Sheet guy had a mini-rant about the difficulty in getting a 2006 back issue of the Observer. Kinda makes Dave look a bit carny. I mean, he actually posted on the Board something to the effect "if you want more shows or changes, tell Bryan you will pay more money". It was about that Lapsed Fan podcast - for some reason it has a following over there and people are lobbying for F4W to pick it up
What were the specifics of the rant exactly, just frustration with how long it takes for back issues to go up on the site?

Assuming this rant was on the F4W Board?

Les Moore talked about it on their latest podcast http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/forum/ ... 1de#p10949

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by LesMoore » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:35 pm

It was on the latest episode of the podcast. Not sure I'd classify it as a rant, but maybe that's for other people to decide: basically, I was frustrated with a couple of things -- you can't actually order the back issue like you can order pretty much any other thing of value on the internet in that I can't transact electronically via paypal or my credit card. I have to email Dave, or write him a letter, with an enclosed check, cash or money order OR I can email him my credit card number to his super-secure email address. It's just so archaic, which to me just compounds the issue of there not being a complete archive of the stuff to begin with for members... And to make matters worse, your membership doesn't even get you a cut rate on non-archived Observers.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by BillThompson » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:07 am

Wrote about this on Twitter, but figured it might be worth talking about in this topic as well.

I just started catching up with the podcast Talking Sheet. The first ep in the queue was one with Chris Harrington from a few months back. It got me to thinking about guys like him and Brandon Howard; specifically the sort of expert analysis that they provide. There's no reason whatsoever that their work should be on free sites and not on one of the two big pay sites. To me it's an example of Dave's, "I am one omnipotent being and need to cover everything" mentality. It's worked in the past, but in this day and age where the business is so extensive there's really no excuse for not having paid experts on your staff who cover very specific areas. It would go a long way towards solving problems like Dave's complete inability to understand how the business model operated in Britain in the past, for instance.

I'm glad that Brandon and Chris have a venue for their extensive, well researched, and high quality work. But, it should be on one of the pay sites and the fact that it isn't and is instead being offered on free sites is a glaring indictment of the pay sites and a testament to how the free sites have lapped the pay sites in terms of content being provided.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Jojothewhale » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:01 am

BillThompson wrote:Wrote about this on Twitter, but figured it might be worth talking about in this topic as well.
Your mini Twitter rant is actually what made me think back to this thread and finally register.
BillThompson wrote:I just started catching up with the podcast Talking Sheet. The first ep in the queue was one with Chris Harrington from a few months back. It got me to thinking about guys like him and Brandon Howard; specifically the sort of expert analysis that they provide. There's no reason whatsoever that their work should be on free sites and not on one of the two big pay sites. To me it's an example of Dave's, "I am one omnipotent being and need to cover everything" mentality. It's worked in the past, but in this day and age where the business is so extensive there's really no excuse for not having paid experts on your staff who cover very specific areas. It would go a long way towards solving problems like Dave's complete inability to understand how the business model operated in Britain in the past, for instance.

I'm glad that Brandon and Chris have a venue for their extensive, well researched, and high quality work. But, it should be on one of the pay sites and the fact that it isn't and is instead being offered on free sites is a glaring indictment of the pay sites and a testament to how the free sites have lapped the pay sites in terms of content being provided.
I think it's the opinion of most who have posted in this thread that the determination on value comes mainly from Dave Meltzer at this point, with more intermittent content like Alan's also holding tremendous value. Let me preface this by saying I don't know Bryan Alvarez at all and I'm sure he's a very nice person.....but as a former subscriber, he's the reason I no longer do. He clearly doesn't enjoy reviewing modern day WWE shows. Lord knows I don't either, but I don't also then go on to talk about it for 20 hours a week. Listening to someone with that attitude is never going to be entertaining for me.

Arguments over things like timestamps are the symptoms rather than the actual problem -- the site is not run efficiently. I work in infosec for one of the largest accounting firms in the world. I know the grueling hours that go into running a content based website. But that doesn't excuse the way that site is run. We as outsiders have no way of knowing who's at fault for the inner workings, but every time Ed in San Antonio or Ryan from Cumberland, Maryland gets on the air, it's just another reminder that the overarching structure is simply not there.

To tie those thoughts together, when Dave merged with F4W, I think what he needed instead of Bryan was a Rich Kraetsch or a Rob McCarron -- someone who does a ton of work behind the scenes, scouts new talent for periodic content, etc. What brought me to the site in the first place was someone suggesting the flagship podcast. The structure of that podcast is a give and take with intermittent rants from Joe. Rich knows when to let him go and when to reel him in. That's the partner Dave needs for his normal weekly shows. The role is cast quite capably whenever Mike Sempervive fills in, so that points to where the issue is once again. I don't know who in the world found Brandon Howard (assuming it's Rich), but he's easily my favorite wrestling writer going. The whole reason I come back to VoW on a regular basis is because the staff is constantly finding fresh ways of presenting content. That attitude simply does not exist at WON/F4W, so I get my wrestling content from VoW, Kris Zellner's shows, Talking Sheet, etc.

*Edited to add Kris Zellner. I've been reading that guy's stuff since original green DVDVR and he's tremendous. My apologies to Kris for forgetting him in the first place.*

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by mprentice84 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:23 pm

The weekly Wrestling Observer Newsletter and archive is worth the price of entry alone. I also really enjoy The Board, both for pro graps/MMA discussion and horsing around. As for the audio, Observer Radio w/Dave, Bryan's show with Tom Lawler, Nason's Punch-Out, Alan's show, and Wrestling Weekly are all weekly listens. The other shows are usually skips. For $10/month, it's a huge value.
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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by JonnyBart » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:38 pm

BillThompson wrote:Wrote about this on Twitter, but figured it might be worth talking about in this topic as well.

I just started catching up with the podcast Talking Sheet. The first ep in the queue was one with Chris Harrington from a few months back. It got me to thinking about guys like him and Brandon Howard; specifically the sort of expert analysis that they provide. There's no reason whatsoever that their work should be on free sites and not on one of the two big pay sites. To me it's an example of Dave's, "I am one omnipotent being and need to cover everything" mentality. It's worked in the past, but in this day and age where the business is so extensive there's really no excuse for not having paid experts on your staff who cover very specific areas. It would go a long way towards solving problems like Dave's complete inability to understand how the business model operated in Britain in the past, for instance.
Dave won't change on this front, he has never brought others on to take some of the space. For those that were not around before Dave joined; Adam and Semp, Dr. Keith (who led to Alan), Karl Stern, Coughlin, etc. were all brought on to F4W by Bryan before Dave even got there. Nearly all the ancillary material on the site, for better or worse, is due to Bryan's cultivation.

After listening to Les's podcast which Wade Keller (which was great btw), I came away with the impression that Wade and Bryan share the similarity in both being builders. Dave is more of an output machine, which is totally cool for the fans of his work.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Ageyev » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:49 pm

JonnyBart wrote:
BillThompson wrote:Wrote about this on Twitter, but figured it might be worth talking about in this topic as well.

I just started catching up with the podcast Talking Sheet. The first ep in the queue was one with Chris Harrington from a few months back. It got me to thinking about guys like him and Brandon Howard; specifically the sort of expert analysis that they provide. There's no reason whatsoever that their work should be on free sites and not on one of the two big pay sites. To me it's an example of Dave's, "I am one omnipotent being and need to cover everything" mentality. It's worked in the past, but in this day and age where the business is so extensive there's really no excuse for not having paid experts on your staff who cover very specific areas. It would go a long way towards solving problems like Dave's complete inability to understand how the business model operated in Britain in the past, for instance.
Dave won't change on this front, he has never brought others on to take some of the space. For those that were not around before Dave joined; Adam and Semp, Dr. Keith (who led to Alan), Karl Stern, Coughlin, etc. were all brought on to F4W by Bryan before Dave even got there. Nearly all the ancillary material on the site, for better or worse, is due to Bryan's cultivation.

After listening to Les's podcast which Wade Keller (which was great btw), I came away with the impression that Wade and Bryan share the similarity in both being builders. Dave is more of an output machine, which is totally cool for the fans of his work.
For what it's worth the Observer has recently featured articles from Irvin Muchnick and this week, Patric Laprade.

Although, as Joe Lanza mentioned on VOW this week, Meltzer's table layout for the Observer HOF was awful and near unreadable.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by TGD287 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:37 pm

But just for an hour? I only ever saw it when it was fine, so that brief moment seems to be more on the editor.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by JonnyBart » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:38 pm

Just out of curiosity, I wonder what percentage of subscribers don't read the Observer and are only there for the audios.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by ThomasOP » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:44 pm

I recently resubbed fro the HOF issue, and the upcoming awards. I've been unable to log-in to THE BOARD, and tried to contact with no response.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by TGD287 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:39 am

JonnyBart wrote:Just out of curiosity, I wonder what percentage of subscribers don't read the Observer and are only there for the audios.
Or a forum.

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by syxxpakk » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:15 am

No.
"If I’m Neville or Aries, I definitely give a shit about the take of TJ “Career Trajectory Vanilla Midget” Perkins regarding my burning desire for advancement and steady income." - supersonic

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Re: F4W/Observer-Is it still worth paying for?

Post by Alan4L » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:45 pm

Ironman Sempervive went three hours with me today after 0 hours and 0 minutes of sleep last night. We talked everything. Hope you guys dig it!

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