PWG (Pro Wrestling Guerilla)

WWE, TNA, and all U.S./Canada based graps talk
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BoxingRobes
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by BoxingRobes » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:51 pm

Pentagon Jr./Sabre Jr. was good...ending just fell a little flat...plus, it was a headliner type match that was placed smackdab in the middle of a huge tournament...its no going to be given time/structure to be some epic battle.

PWG did it right though...they gave you the match, but only a little taste...everyone was left wanting more of those two together after the match...which, I think was kind of the point.

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Alan4L
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by Alan4L » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:30 pm

dj22319 wrote:
Alan4L wrote:2 hour review by myself and Joey Bay up at F4W for FREE!!!!

http://www.f4wonline.com/dr-keith/dr-ke ... -21-200071
Your comparison of Pentagon Jr./Sabre Jr. to Joe/Kobashi is spot on. If people knew this match was gonna happen, and if they had a bigger venue, there's no doubt in my mind they would've had super no vacancy. I just wish I saw this match with your eyes, cuz with mine, I honestly cannot give u a straight face and say this is a MOTYC. It was very good, but I KNOW these guys can do better, and when they do, I'm gonna mark the fuck out.
I definitely appear to be the high marker on it. It just felt so raw and the feeling out process really felt like a feeling out process. If they had a rematch it probably would have more awesome, cohesive stuff but I think I liked the fact that this was so raw to use that term again.

dj22319 wrote:
Alan4L wrote:2 hour review by myself and Joey Bay up at F4W for FREE!!!!

http://www.f4wonline.com/dr-keith/dr-ke ... -21-200071
Alan, if u thought that Fenix dive in Night Two was amazing, u need to see Fenix's singles match against Taiji Ishimori during his NOAH run. He dished out one of the highest, corckscrewiest springboards I've ever seen.
I definitely saw that match but I don't remember the dive at all. Need to check it out!

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ThomasOP
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by ThomasOP » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:56 pm

I didn't like Ricochet/Sabre Jr. as much as others. I thought Ricochet exchanging holds with him (and basically winning the battle at the beginning) didn't really make sense to me. I've been disappointed by Zack in the first two nights. I like his style but he comes off so bland so far, I really dug his emotion he showed against Roderick at the beginning of the Stage One tag, but he hasn't quite shown it since. I still have Stage Three to go though!

edit. Just finished Pentagon/Sabre. I loved this. The start with the submission exchange was bonkers. Lucha style vs. British style, and it meshed awesome. I still wish Sabre showed a little more emotion in his selling, and transitions. He's pretty straight faced most of the time, even while eating those vicious chops. The finish was quick, and this 100% needs a rematch. This is a MOTYC for me, but on the low end. I have this & Thatcher/Hero neck and neck as match of the tournament. Still have a few matches to get through.

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dj22319
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by dj22319 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:44 am

BoxingRobes wrote:Pentagon Jr./Sabre Jr. was good...ending just fell a little flat...plus, it was a headliner type match that was placed smackdab in the middle of a huge tournament...its no going to be given time/structure to be some epic battle.

PWG did it right though...they gave you the match, but only a little taste...everyone was left wanting more of those two together after the match...which, I think was kind of the point.
That's a good point, but that's only if PWG decides to book them together again. I'm not concerned with their intentions, cuz im sure they're aware of what they have here, but i'm more concerned with Pentagon's schedule allowing that. With the season 2 of LU coming up.
The name's David Perez, but you can call me David Purorez (GET ITTTTT?)

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ethanpwt_
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by ethanpwt_ » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:37 am

I think it'll be saved for sometime next year. Would be perfect for a Mystery Vortex title defense for Sabre. Imagine the pop if it's Pentagon's first appearance since BOLA.

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dj22319
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by dj22319 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:33 pm

ethanpwt_ wrote:I think it'll be saved for sometime next year. Would be perfect for a Mystery Vortex title defense for Sabre. Imagine the pop if it's Pentagon's first appearance since BOLA.
Oh my god... that would be amazing.
The name's David Perez, but you can call me David Purorez (GET ITTTTT?)

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Hobbes
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by Hobbes » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:11 pm

The great thing about PWG right now is that they sell out within minutes whether they have a card or not. They could run Mystery Vortex shows for every card in the foreseeable future if they wanted to, which means that they could run any kind of huge un-advertised surprise they want and not have to worry about losing out on ticket sales.

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Jeff Hawkins
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:52 pm

ThomasOP wrote:I have this & Thatcher/Hero neck and neck as match of the tournament. Still have a few matches to get through.
See ZSJ/Pentagon is the one I thought was fanboys going gaga than anything that happened in the ring.

Not that it was a bad match, but it wasn't up to "OMG!" level.

I still have reservations on ZSJ. In my opinion, he doesn't sell very well either in timing (up close and watching when he's down on the mat, he's just waiting to get back up), body language or facials. I can't get past the notion that he's "play fighting" and being cute at times when the match energy is ramped up and requires something else.

I realize I'm in a very small minority here and reserve the right for my opinion to be changed. Part of the magic, right?

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ethanpwt_
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by ethanpwt_ » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:09 pm

The Fray Movement wrote:Imagine if PWG still ran shows.
Those were the days, my friend.

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ThomasOP
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by ThomasOP » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:05 pm

Jeff Hawkins wrote:
ThomasOP wrote:I have this & Thatcher/Hero neck and neck as match of the tournament. Still have a few matches to get through.

In my opinion, he doesn't sell very well either in timing (up close and watching when he's down on the mat, he's just waiting to get back up), body language or facials.

I'm right there with you. Even when he's taking super hard strikes, it seems like he's just waiting for the next move. I still think he's awesome, but he really needs to work on that. It'd take his matches up a notch.

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NoLoudNoise
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by NoLoudNoise » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:40 am

On Sabre I feel the same way about TJ Perkins and it applies to both. Like they make it seem too easy and more like a dance as opposed to an actual struggle as far as a lot of the matwork goes. Sometimes is can undermine the work of their opponent. That's probably why subconsciously I didn't feel like Sabre's MOTYCs were on that level despite being very good matches (Thatcher, Hero x2, Roddy x2)

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brandonbitw
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PWG 2015

Post by brandonbitw » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:01 pm

Saber is freakin' amazing, but yeah I feel you guys. I felt in this tourney especially, he didn't really bring that fire like last year that got him over. Maybe he just knew that this year the crowd was gonna go bananas for him regardless. I always revert back to the Indy Danielson ( IMO the pinnacle of the technical/grappling/submission/rolling style) comparison to sort of asses where Sabre is at. Bryan had the showmanship technicality of Sabre, and the intense/stiff technicality of Kyle O'Reily. That's where Zack needs the most improvement. I cannot point one singles match of his from BOLA to you (aside from maybe the Pentagon match) where there was just a silly ambiance exuding from the match. And that's not really a knock, because I love that style of wrestling (Cabana/Punk 2 out of 3 falls is one of my favorite matches, What's up) but I just wished he would've turned it up just a tad at some points. For example, the Hero match is a perfect example of how Sabre can be when needed. The main event needed that out of him and didn't get it, which is why I didn't really enjoy the match. The guys got it though.
NoLoudNoise talks about how Zack's mat work looks like a dance lol, I agree. He's a technical wizard and he knows it, and it manifests himself in that showmanship I mentioned earlier. But sometimes it just doesn't work. In that main event it kind of threw me off when I realized we were in the main event of BOLA, in a triple threat, and we have just taken a "break" to see Zack wrestle circles around a guy. So talented, but I just think he needs to know when to channel it. Or maybe I'm just looking into it to much and the guy was in the states for a few days in a small building where people love him, at one of the loudest and best events of the year, and he just wanted to have fun.
Last edited by brandonbitw on Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rah
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by Rah » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:17 pm

Disclaimer: I haven't watched a heap of his matches, but these are thoughts I get from the couple I have seen (across different promotions/opponents/continents)

What I get from watching Sabre is that he falls into the trap of being too committed to his craft. He loves wearing his influences on his sleeve, and it's at that point that things start to hinder him. He definitely shares a reservation in a group of guys that I think are hampered by being too fixated on watching tapes and trying to emulate spots they adored. Guys like Sabre, Fenix, Perkins* and Hero have a lot of match spots that look great, and they execute them wonderfully, but the wrestlers sometimes struggle with the ability to craft together those spots into a meaningful narrative. Fair enough, Hero found his groove about a decade ago but I'd still put a lot of his earlier work into that same mold. Sabre, and I applaud him for trying to bring WoS back to contemporary eyes, seemingly struggles with this the most. He looks devastating in a highlight reel, and can have exceptional matches with opponents that can help build him to his spots (Thatcher) but he gets a bit lost when a match goes long. I'd actually love for someone from WWE's PC centre to sit down with the Evolve talents at some point. Smiley or Regal would do wonders for Sabre, and while I'm not that much of a fan of his work, with a little crafting, I do beleive Sabre can become an exceptional talent. There's a whole lot of raw promise.


*I'm not sure that's the case with contemporary Perkins, though. He seems to have grasped his own "wrestling voice" while still playing to some great spots. That said, his earlier work? Sure.

Quentin Moody
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PWG 2015

Post by Quentin Moody » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:43 pm

I completely get the selling criticisms of Sabre Jr, but for me I love how he works on the mat. For the criticism of his stuff looks like a "dance" it's not as aggressive and to the point as a Timothy Thatcher works, but that's because Sabre is a flashy, cocky, smarmy, motherfucker who knows he can catch you at anytime. He plays "wizard technician" well. At times he can be a WOS tribute act which I have zero issues with, but a lot of his reversals and transitions just leave me with my jaw dropped.

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BillThompson
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Re: PWG 2015

Post by BillThompson » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:07 pm

My biggest criticism of Sabre has always been that he had too much of an exhibition style approach to his matches. For the first few years of his career I didn't feel like there was much urgency or believability to what he was doing. Sure, the technical execution was present, but I always felt like he was trying to look good as opposed to actually wrestling. Over the past two years I feel he's improved greatly in that regard. He's still nowhere near the level of a Thatcher when it comes to being the complete package of a technical wrestler, or a Gulak when it comes to the pure technical approach. But, his flashier style slowly won me over.

Then, I paid heed to Jeff's complaints and found myself taking issue with the way that Sabre would sell, or half/no sell to be more exact. He doesn't always do it, but there are times when it's clear he doesn't give two shits about what his opponent is trying to do and is just going through the motions until he can counter and be on offense yet again. His match against Hero in EVOLVE from earlier this year is a great example of this.

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