All Elite Wrestling (Discussion)

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thecubsfan
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by thecubsfan » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:36 am

Alex Marvez is gone* so I hope the next thing AEW ditches is the Casino Battle Royal. I'm thinking about it how we don't know about half the field in the match on Saturday, which means there's going to be 1-3 surprise people in each group of five people. Maybe there's another Road to coming tomorrow to announce a few more names, but it still seems like a not-great way to introduce new people to a crowd that's may not know them. I like new ideas and I like not having long royal rumbles but a match with a lot fewer people seems like a better idea than to marginalizing a lot of people.

* - and I thought there'd be a much bigger reaction to that news than there was.

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mlev76
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by mlev76 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:47 pm

Anyone know if you order on B/R live if you get on demand replays or is it just the one time stream? Probably not gonna be able to see the beginning of the show, but would still like to watch some of it tonight.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:14 pm

Gauging some of the response around the internet...I guess people are calling ALL OUT a "good" show...

...then why do I feel like this was a great show?

Everything was really good to great. Show was a bit long, but...everything delivered.

re: the time...WWE has kind of devalued pay per views...having people flop down $50 for a pay per view when WWE gives "them" away for $10 a month. At some point, you need to balance quality of the show, length of the show, etc to make that $50 accessible and worth it to people. I'm not sure in 2019 you can get people to put $50 in volume for PPVs that are 2.5h with a bunch of average matches. Good to great bell-to-bell with some length to the show seems to be the value proposition.

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BoxingRobes
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:59 pm

...and yes. Everyone has been saying PAC wrong the entire time.

Only reason I knew this was because Excalibur has pointed it out many times during PWG shows.

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Frank Olson
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by Frank Olson » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:06 pm

I agree with BoxingRobes, I thought ALL OUT was a great show overall. All of the matches felt distinct from each other and I thought most of them delivered at or above expectations. The show did feel a bit dragged out and I still think the commentary is problematic. Golden Boy actually did a pretty great job, but he and Excalibur both doing play by play seems redundant, and JR's commentary style these days is basically him doing a (largely negative) live reaction review of the show he's watching. Aside from that I thought the presentation of the show was great and the wrestling was mostly very good to excellent.

It was bizarre to see Omega/Pac go on so early in the show (did Pac have to get an early flight back to England or something?) but the match was awesome and I thought Pac's submission finisher was really cool (I haven't seen much of his recent Dragon Gate/European indies run, so I don't know if this is something he's been using for a while or if it's new). I think Kenny losing was the right call. If his IWGP Title run was any indication then I'd say he's much more compelling clawing his way to the top than he is being on top, so I kind of hope they keep up this streak of him losing his biggest matches for a while.

I'm not a big fan of plunder matches in general but I really enjoyed the Cracker Barrel Clash. Definitely my favorite of the handful of hardcore-style matches that AEW has done so far, with tons of totally insane spots. I also got a lot of amusement out of them advertising Cracker Barrel with a picture of their fried chicken dinner right before they went to replays of people getting thumb tacks stuffed into their mouths.

Riho/Shida was solid but I hope that once TV starts they give the Joshi some storylines and don't just kind of randomly throw them out there. So far the Joshi have been able to get the live crowd into their matches by the closing stretch, but the matches have started out pretty quiet. Riho vs. Nyla Rose seems like a great choice for the first Women's Title match. The smallest woman in the division vs. the largest. I think Rose has a lot of potential as the monster heel of the division.

The Cody/Spears match was fun and had a great atmosphere like all of Cody's AEW singles matches so far. (Although, as someone who has to get their dog anti-anxiety medication every year for distant July 4th fireworks, I have to say that I cringed a little when Cody and Brandi had their dog so close to pyro during their entrance). The match really did nothing for Shawn Spears though. In addition to surprisingly taking the loss I just thought he did nothing to come off like a star. It felt like you could've had any competent pro in their opposite Cody and with all the other crazy bells and whistles of the match and it would've come off just as well. I also find the extended tease of MJF turning on Cody to be a little bizarre. Isn't he already the promotion's No. 2 heel (behind Jericho)?

I know that people are sick of seeing The Young Bucks and The Lucha Bros. face each other, and I'm personally sick of ladder matches as a general rule, but goddamn that match was an incredible spectacle. Some of the bumps were just absolutely disgusting, like that Canadian Destroyer off the top of ladders through a table. I hope that Matt Jackson isn't dead and/or paralyzed after some of the abuse he took toward the end of that match.

Jericho/Page was pretty good and definitely helped in the drama department by the accidental cut above Jericho's eye. I also liked the touch of having Aubrey Edwards officiate the match. I think she has potential as the sort of Red Shoes-equivalent star referee of the promotion. (Her impovisation in the Joshi match at Double or Nothing where she scolded the person who accidentally rang the bell is one of my favorite AEW moments so far). Some of the stuff with Jericho reversing Page's signature moves into Codebreakers looked really good too.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by PrivateRadio87 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:51 am

I finally got around to watching the show today, and I'm still surprised at how much I liked it. Even the matches I didn't like that much (Cody/Spears, BFFs/Dark Order) had moments that made them worth watching. I really liked Jericho v. Page a lot. I always seem to go high on Jericho matches this year, but I thought they both did great work and Jericho finally stopped repeating all of his shitheel spots from the New Japan matches.

I loved the opening trios match, the Cracker Barrel triple threat felt like a GCW all-star game (in a really good way) and PAC/Omega overdelivered after the internet tempered my expectations. I'm hype on AEW again after Fight for the Fallen took some of the wind out of my sails. Great show.
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by mlev76 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:04 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:14 pm
Gauging some of the response around the internet...I guess people are calling ALL OUT a "good" show...

...then why do I feel like this was a great show?

Everything was really good to great. Show was a bit long, but...everything delivered.

re: the time...WWE has kind of devalued pay per views...having people flop down $50 for a pay per view when WWE gives "them" away for $10 a month. At some point, you need to balance quality of the show, length of the show, etc to make that $50 accessible and worth it to people. I'm not sure in 2019 you can get people to put $50 in volume for PPVs that are 2.5h with a bunch of average matches. Good to great bell-to-bell with some length to the show seems to be the value proposition.
Respectfully disagree with the "great" analysis and would say enjoyed Takeover: Cardiff more.

There was great and close to great stuff on the show (the six man, the joshi match and the Laddr match), but compared to previous efforts, I found the show lacking the "specialness" that previous shows had. I was disappointed in the Omega/Pac and the Cody/Spears matches for different reasons. The former never clicked at the level of past Omega matches (a non-discussed point with Kenny is that he is definitely past his peak from last year) while the latter focussed on outside forces rather than Spears. Cody winning, while understandable, ended up leaving Spears as the "good hand" he was called.

I also think if the price point remains, I'm not going to be an automatic buy unless there's a compelling match or two on the show. The TV will also tell the tale about how invested I remain.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by Ckkj14 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:58 pm

Can't say any of the Joshi stuff has been that enjoyable for me.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by mlev76 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:04 pm

LOLAEW


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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:28 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:04 pm
BoxingRobes wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:14 pm
Gauging some of the response around the internet...I guess people are calling ALL OUT a "good" show...

...then why do I feel like this was a great show?

Everything was really good to great. Show was a bit long, but...everything delivered.

re: the time...WWE has kind of devalued pay per views...having people flop down $50 for a pay per view when WWE gives "them" away for $10 a month. At some point, you need to balance quality of the show, length of the show, etc to make that $50 accessible and worth it to people. I'm not sure in 2019 you can get people to put $50 in volume for PPVs that are 2.5h with a bunch of average matches. Good to great bell-to-bell with some length to the show seems to be the value proposition.
Respectfully disagree with the "great" analysis and would say enjoyed Takeover: Cardiff more.

There was great and close to great stuff on the show (the six man, the joshi match and the Laddr match), but compared to previous efforts, I found the show lacking the "specialness" that previous shows had. I was disappointed in the Omega/Pac and the Cody/Spears matches for different reasons. The former never clicked at the level of past Omega matches (a non-discussed point with Kenny is that he is definitely past his peak from last year) while the latter focussed on outside forces rather than Spears. Cody winning, while understandable, ended up leaving Spears as the "good hand" he was called.

I also think if the price point remains, I'm not going to be an automatic buy unless there's a compelling match or two on the show. The TV will also tell the tale about how invested I remain.
I didn't say it was a SPECIAL show, I just thought it was great. Why? Because I didn't think there was anything close to a DUD (think the lowest fare I had on the card was like *** fare)...and there were numerous ****+ type matches on the show. That, to me, is a great show every time. It was NOT special, but I thought great.

For reference...I had Omega-Pac in that ****1/4 area and the Cody-Spears match in like the ***1/4-***1/2 type range. I dont think either disappointed me. Thats about what I expected going in.

As for your other comments on the matches...I don't disagree that Kenny Omega is a step or two behind standard from last year...I am not sure if that is by design or he really just has a lot going on and not giving these matches big efforts (I dont think any of his matches have warranted the escalation of traditional Kenny matches, but that is for another thread). I also think that he's in a holding pattern for now. Being used to elevate some talent and get them established (Moxley and PAC...not terrible Ls that will likely be program Ws for Omega when they push him). As for the Cody match...I get the feeling that a lot of this is going to result in some sort of faction being formed by guys like Spears, MJF, maybe Dustin against Cody. I have a feeling there are bigger things at play for Cody's programs and they are all inconnected. We'll see.

Back to the price point discussion...I dont think people will plop down $50 if the standard is NXT Takeover shows. Like...2h to 2.5h shows with a few killer matches. I just don't know if people in 2019 think that is a value proposition, even if the shows are homeruns like most Takeovers. My opinion...if people are going to be asked to pay $50 for these big events...I think theyll have to be a bit bloated and the matches, too, bloated up a bit, to justify the price. It seems that they won't have a ton of these $50 asks over the course of a calendar year, but its something to take notice of moving forward. I, like you, will not be a customer to count on for these events...they are getting by with a lot of good will from me right now, but that wears off very quickly.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by mlev76 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:51 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:28 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:04 pm
BoxingRobes wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:14 pm
Gauging some of the response around the internet...I guess people are calling ALL OUT a "good" show...

...then why do I feel like this was a great show?

Everything was really good to great. Show was a bit long, but...everything delivered.

re: the time...WWE has kind of devalued pay per views...having people flop down $50 for a pay per view when WWE gives "them" away for $10 a month. At some point, you need to balance quality of the show, length of the show, etc to make that $50 accessible and worth it to people. I'm not sure in 2019 you can get people to put $50 in volume for PPVs that are 2.5h with a bunch of average matches. Good to great bell-to-bell with some length to the show seems to be the value proposition.
Respectfully disagree with the "great" analysis and would say enjoyed Takeover: Cardiff more.

There was great and close to great stuff on the show (the six man, the joshi match and the Laddr match), but compared to previous efforts, I found the show lacking the "specialness" that previous shows had. I was disappointed in the Omega/Pac and the Cody/Spears matches for different reasons. The former never clicked at the level of past Omega matches (a non-discussed point with Kenny is that he is definitely past his peak from last year) while the latter focussed on outside forces rather than Spears. Cody winning, while understandable, ended up leaving Spears as the "good hand" he was called.

I also think if the price point remains, I'm not going to be an automatic buy unless there's a compelling match or two on the show. The TV will also tell the tale about how invested I remain.
I didn't say it was a SPECIAL show, I just thought it was great. Why? Because I didn't think there was anything close to a DUD (think the lowest fare I had on the card was like *** fare)...and there were numerous ****+ type matches on the show. That, to me, is a great show every time. It was NOT special, but I thought great.

For reference...I had Omega-Pac in that ****1/4 area and the Cody-Spears match in like the ***1/4-***1/2 type range. I dont think either disappointed me. Thats about what I expected going in.

As for your other comments on the matches...I don't disagree that Kenny Omega is a step or two behind standard from last year...I am not sure if that is by design or he really just has a lot going on and not giving these matches big efforts (I dont think any of his matches have warranted the escalation of traditional Kenny matches, but that is for another thread). I also think that he's in a holding pattern for now. Being used to elevate some talent and get them established (Moxley and PAC...not terrible Ls that will likely be program Ws for Omega when they push him). As for the Cody match...I get the feeling that a lot of this is going to result in some sort of faction being formed by guys like Spears, MJF, maybe Dustin against Cody. I have a feeling there are bigger things at play for Cody's programs and they are all inconnected. We'll see.

Back to the price point discussion...I dont think people will plop down $50 if the standard is NXT Takeover shows. Like...2h to 2.5h shows with a few killer matches. I just don't know if people in 2019 think that is a value proposition, even if the shows are homeruns like most Takeovers. My opinion...if people are going to be asked to pay $50 for these big events...I think theyll have to be a bit bloated and the matches, too, bloated up a bit, to justify the price. It seems that they won't have a ton of these $50 asks over the course of a calendar year, but its something to take notice of moving forward. I, like you, will not be a customer to count on for these events...they are getting by with a lot of good will from me right now, but that wears off very quickly.
Cody is right now the biggest star they have if you gauge things by crowd reaction, so it is going to be hard to avoid getting him into the world title picture soon, maybe as soon as the next PPV. I just didn't think the match did much for either guy and given that Cody is pretty bulletproof for now, I wish they'd have given Spears some shine.

Since they're doing quarterly shows, I would certainly expect shows to be on the longer, four hour or more length and be filled with as many big matches as possible. And as long as they are appealing and deliver, they should be fine. The issue is when you can get your AEW fix weekly as of October, are you really missing out if you miss a PPV? How soon until they consider some OTT service to expand their profit centers? And will any of the stars cross over to "superstar" level and will any of the guys with potential become stars? Lots of ifs, lots of maybes and lots to speculate about for sure.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:04 pm

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I do hope that Cody stays out of the title picture for a while. I like my wrestling to not ALWAYS involve titles. I think what Cody's set up with Dustin, MJF, and Spears...couple it now with some of the old Horsemen (has been done tastefully so far) is a nice respite from the mania that is the undercard (battle royals, multi-man spot fests, tag team spot fests, joshi, etc) and jump back in to this STORY before we get to the big main events. I'd love to see Cody stay in this position for a while telling this seemingly long form story that looks like its going to try and elevate and establish a ton of guys at once.

Its also so different from everything else and done with more TLC than anything else they are doing.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by H.U.S.T.L.E. » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:48 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:04 pm
a non-discussed point with Kenny is that he is definitely past his peak from last year
The guy has only had 7 matches total this year, per Cagematch. That includes the incredible main event he had against Tanahashi at Wrestle Kingdom in January. And two of the four singles matches were against dudes who are over 40. But still, every one of his singles matches this year is pretty universally considered at least "very good" per most reviewers.

I think this is non-discussed because it's simply false, and he hasn't had nearly as many opportunities as in years past.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by mlev76 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:25 pm

H.U.S.T.L.E. wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:48 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:04 pm
a non-discussed point with Kenny is that he is definitely past his peak from last year
The guy has only had 7 matches total this year, per Cagematch. That includes the incredible main event he had against Tanahashi at Wrestle Kingdom in January. And two of the four singles matches were against dudes who are over 40. But still, every one of his singles matches this year is pretty universally considered at least "very good" per most reviewers.

I think this is non-discussed because it's simply false, and he hasn't had nearly as many opportunities as in years past.
When you're self referentially called the "best bout machine," very good is a step down. I didn't say he was bad, I merely said he's past his peak. Could he return to it? Sure. But, honestly, judging by his output, I'm not sure he has the capacity or the opponents to do so.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by Crash Nebula » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:46 pm

So far AEW has been able to keep my interest from show to show. I purchased Double Or Nothing and All Out and, despite the fact they are outrageously priced in the Network era (not that they can help it) I came away feeling like I got my money's worth. Every show has delivered to me, some have exceeded expectations. Initially I thought All Out was a bit of a disappointment because it didn't have that huge, truly special moment that I was hoping for. But really, with the expectations I set, the only thing that was going to fulfill them was CM Punk debuting, which was always a long shot. Now that I've had time to digest things, how can I be disappointed? Every match was good. The tag team ladder match was absolutely unbelievable. PAC got what I would consider to be a huge upset win over Omega. LAX debuted, further cementing AEW's tag team division as one of the best in the world. Hell, we got a AA Spinebuster from the man himself. It was a great show.

Cody Rhodes has been the big winner in AEW so far. Obviously, from a professional perspective, he's already achieved something pretty much unheard of with his promotion of All In and the formation of AEW. But as a wrestler, he's really shattering all expectations. A lot of people in the wrestling community have downplayed his post-WWE run and labeled him a mediocre wrestler. That may be the case, but he's found what works for him in AEW to make himself look truly elite. His match with Dustin will be one of the best or at least most memorable matches of the year, he had a great match with Darby that made Darby look like a star in the making, the Bucks tag match was solid and now this match with Spears was way more compelling than it had any right to be. I don't think many people could have foreseen a Cody/Spears feud being as good or interesting as it has been so far, but they've managed to pull it off. The match went off the rails with all the hijinks but up until the finish, they were really killing it imo. It doesn't hurt that Cody is like a God to AEW's faithful.

After Cody, the other guys who are really smashing it so far would be Darby Allin, MJF, Luchasaurus and Private Party. All came in to AEW as relative unknowns in comparison to guys like Cody, Chris, Kenny and The Bucks but they have star written all over them. Darby is already being built as the ultimate underdog, with a bit of Mick Foley influence. He can have great matches, cut a good promo and has the fans in his corner already. MJF is just crushing it as one of the finest heels in the business. Surely he'll turn on Cody down the road and that should be a major marquee feud. Luchasaurus immediately stands out of course. He has a marketable and distinct look which is valuable for a company like AEW who are going to need to create and keep fans. Then in between the ropes he does some awesome stuff that should help him climb the ladder even faster. I'm very interested in seeing him against guys like Kenny, PAC and Moxley. Then there's Private Party who I hadn't heard of at all before they debuted with AEW. They have magnetic personalities and an arsenal that will mesh perfectly with the rest of the teams in AEW. It might take a while, but I think they'll eventually reach the top of the division.

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