All Elite Wrestling (Discussion)

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cbacon87
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by cbacon87 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:05 pm

Seems like an issue of trying to have your cake and eat it. They want to do some big shocking angle for heat, but they also want to be seen as being progressive and 'better' than the competition, so they can't risk upsetting people. They presumably want to give the impression that Shawn Spears was SHOOT mad about a (non kayfabe) comment Cody made and did something he's not 'supposed' to do as a wrestler in 2019, plus they make it such a big deal that one of their major heels in MJF is checking on Cody, but they're also going to come out on Twitter and in press scrums after the show and explain exactly how the worked wrestling show worked every time they run a show.

So you do the chair shot, but you can't do the follow-up anyway. Unless they were just so tone-deaf that they assumed people wouldn't take issue with it, it's a bit of a lack of foresight, right? And even if you do, it's going to be some kind of weird blurring of kayfabe that no-one buys and you're going to undercut regardless.

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mlev76
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by mlev76 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:09 pm

Ckkj14 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:46 am
Joe made a good point on the latest Pod behind the paywall. AEW needed to run with this rather than run away from it and come out and tell everyone it was a gimmiked chair. How is Spears going to get over cutting his next promo now when we they've come out and told us Cody is fine and it was all a bad accident
I'm of the mindset that you shouldn't ever do chairshots to the head knowing what we know now. The value to them is almost uniformly outweighed by the danger and the backlash you get from doing them. But, if you are going to do them, they should, as Joe said, be rare and most definitely should not be ran away from once you do it. You stuck your neck out and are negating the rewards for doing so.

I do strongly disagree with Joe's comments on Darby and how he comes out of this. For those who didn't know him before, the one thing they'll take away from this was the apron bump and pretty much that's it. Even though he didn't lose, he was dominated throughout the match. I've seen better matches where the goal was to make Darby look strong where he lost rather than just went to a draw (his match with Kassius Ohno last year at Evolve sticks out).

I also don't agree that "everyone knows who he is." He's never appeared on national tv before. His work on Evolve and PWG shows are the most visibility he's had and the stage of AEW is clearly much bigger than either of those. They could have easily taken a few moments to have Cody show Darby some respect, leave the ring and then had the attack. You would have then better established Allin while also getting the Spears program set up.

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mlev76
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by mlev76 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:11 pm

cbacon87 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:05 pm
So you do the chair shot, but you can't do the follow-up anyway. Unless they were just so tone-deaf that they assumed people wouldn't take issue with it, it's a bit of a lack of foresight, right? And even if you do, it's going to be some kind of weird blurring of kayfabe that no-one buys and you're going to undercut regardless.
People have mistakenly credited them with being far brighter with regard to foresight than they clearly are. They're not idiots, but they're not showing themselves to be as seasoned as one would hope.

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H.U.S.T.L.E.
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by H.U.S.T.L.E. » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:46 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:09 pm
I also don't agree that "everyone knows who he is." He's never appeared on national tv before. His work on Evolve and PWG shows are the most visibility he's had and the stage of AEW is clearly much bigger than either of those. They could have easily taken a few moments to have Cody show Darby some respect, leave the ring and then had the attack. You would have then better established Allin while also getting the Spears program set up.
I don't mind that there wasn't a mutual respect angle between Cody & Darby. To me, the whole point of the vignettes introducing Darby and this match is to show that he's a maniac who puts his body on the line and will never quit. The two big spots in the match (the ringpost bump and the apron bump) and the draw told that story without Cody needing to do anything else. I get the reasoning behind doing an angle afterward, but I don't think it was necessary or does much else to build Darby. If anything, by not doing it you leave the door open for something else since you could reasonably say they have unfinished business. The respect angle could be seen as closing a chapter.

That leads me to Janela/Moxley. I've seen people saying the violence didn't match the "stakes" for why they were fighting. The way I saw it, all of these early AEW shows are trying to establish characters. In this instance, Janela & Moxley are two crazy SOBs who don't mind taking risks that most others would avoid. The fact that it WASN'T a blowoff drives that point home further in my opinion.

Final thoughts - I haven't watched nearly as much wrestling over the last few years as I used to due to various life events. So even though I follow things closely enough and see highlights to know what guys like Allin and Janela are all about, that's the first time I've watched a full match of Darby's and only the second Janela match (All In being the first).

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cbacon87
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by cbacon87 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:43 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:11 pm
cbacon87 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:05 pm
So you do the chair shot, but you can't do the follow-up anyway. Unless they were just so tone-deaf that they assumed people wouldn't take issue with it, it's a bit of a lack of foresight, right? And even if you do, it's going to be some kind of weird blurring of kayfabe that no-one buys and you're going to undercut regardless.
People have mistakenly credited them with being far brighter with regard to foresight than they clearly are. They're not idiots, but they're not showing themselves to be as seasoned as one would hope.
I think there's been a certain amount of aspirational thinking when it comes to AEW, both because people want it to do well and because these guys have talked the talk very well and haven't had the chance to been 'found out' yet. They were put on a bit of a pedestal from day one and made a bunch of bold claims and that's why when things like the chair shot or the convoluted bye in the tag tournament or The Librarian come up, I guess it's going to be a bigger deal than it maybe should be.

They're going to make mistakes. Of course they are. They're brand new to this and are completely untested. The difference is, if feels like some people were already penciling them in to change wrestling forever because, I dunno, they really hope that they do.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:36 pm

cbacon87 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:05 pm
Seems like an issue of trying to have your cake and eat it. They want to do some big shocking angle for heat, but they also want to be seen as being progressive and 'better' than the competition, so they can't risk upsetting people. They presumably want to give the impression that Shawn Spears was SHOOT mad about a (non kayfabe) comment Cody made and did something he's not 'supposed' to do as a wrestler in 2019, plus they make it such a big deal that one of their major heels in MJF is checking on Cody, but they're also going to come out on Twitter and in press scrums after the show and explain exactly how the worked wrestling show worked every time they run a show.

So you do the chair shot, but you can't do the follow-up anyway. Unless they were just so tone-deaf that they assumed people wouldn't take issue with it, it's a bit of a lack of foresight, right? And even if you do, it's going to be some kind of weird blurring of kayfabe that no-one buys and you're going to undercut regardless.
I think of you are going to do something like a violent chairshot to the head, you have to accept that some people will take issie with it, and ignore them.

If you're going to come out and immediately apologize or attempt to soften the criticism in some way, then dont even bother.

Have the guts to go all the way, or don't waste our time.

The problem, is as you say, they've positioned themselves as progressive, so they've boxed themselves into this corner. I was wary of this from day one and knew it would be a constant source of problems.

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mlev76
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by mlev76 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:29 pm

cbacon87 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:43 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:11 pm
cbacon87 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:05 pm
So you do the chair shot, but you can't do the follow-up anyway. Unless they were just so tone-deaf that they assumed people wouldn't take issue with it, it's a bit of a lack of foresight, right? And even if you do, it's going to be some kind of weird blurring of kayfabe that no-one buys and you're going to undercut regardless.
People have mistakenly credited them with being far brighter with regard to foresight than they clearly are. They're not idiots, but they're not showing themselves to be as seasoned as one would hope.
I think there's been a certain amount of aspirational thinking when it comes to AEW, both because people want it to do well and because these guys have talked the talk very well and haven't had the chance to been 'found out' yet. They were put on a bit of a pedestal from day one and made a bunch of bold claims and that's why when things like the chair shot or the convoluted bye in the tag tournament or The Librarian come up, I guess it's going to be a bigger deal than it maybe should be.

They're going to make mistakes. Of course they are. They're brand new to this and are completely untested. The difference is, if feels like some people were already penciling them in to change wrestling forever because, I dunno, they really hope that they do.
They are avatars for people's desires. There's a benefit to that but also a burden. So far, the former is greatly outweighing the latter.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by suplexberry » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:45 pm

The chairshot got the intended reaction, which was visceral anger at Shawn Spears and sympathy for Cody, out of me. I can't blame them. Chairshots obviously shouldn't be as frequent as armdrags, but I wasn't one of the people getting angry. It kind of sucks they're under such a microscope. Fans will always be vocal, it's the nature of this fandom, but the bar seems to be set high for the promotion. Some of it is their own fault, some of it is just being a start up wrestling promotion in 2019.

I thought Darby was introduced perfectly. Great vignettes, he got his spots in, looked smooth against Cody and Cody couldn't put him away in time - whether that was lack of skill or underestimation on Cody's part, will remain to be seen. They turned an inevitable-seeming Cody win into a thrilling drama. That's what wrestling is all about, to me. The match both fulfilled and outperformed my personal expectations. I am super high on it. May need to rewatch it to see how it really ranks among my faves.

Overall I am just super-into the way they are building multiple feuds at once. It's obvious Jericho vs Omega is still a well they can dip into, Jericho vs Cody has tension that's been built up on the Road to clips, Jericho vs Mox, Mox vs Kenny that is happening, MJF vs pretty much everybody... There's a lot of irons on low heat and when they want to heat them up, everything's set up already. This makes me excited because there's such a good chance this promotion will be, at least, for the most part, very satisfying on the stories front.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by Joe Lanza » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:11 pm

They've got MJF & Spears on the same side of a six man tag, with MJF complaining about it on Twitter. Aligning MJF with Cody and having him feud with another heel who did Cody dirty is good stuff. It gives MJF an added layer beyond "asshole heel who hates everyone".

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by Murcatto » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:29 pm

Brandi's promo in the latest "Road to …" video is excellent. I didn't imagine that I would ever be invested in a Brandi Rhodes match but here we are.

I was thinking about who the first tag team champions & women's champion should be. I wouldn't make the Bucks the first champions. I feel that them chasing the belts is a more interesting story, and even keeping them away from the title scene for a while will probably be better for the other teams in the division (it guarantees at least two tag team programs at any given time). You could make the argument that you want to establish to the new TV audience that the Bucks are the best team in the business and a long dominant reign is a good way to get that over, but I think there is a stronger argument for putting the belts on the Lucha Brothers. I sense that the Bucks want to work with the Dark Order and get them over, so the Order beating the Bucks in the semis (leading to a non-title feud) and the Lucha Bros beating the Order in the final seems like the way to go for me. It's not inconceivable that the Order win the tournament - the Bucks seem firmly in their corner and they are the only heel tag team in the promotion. But ultimately I think that putting belts on people who aren't over is rarely a good idea. If the Bucks can get them over after the tournament, maybe you have them win the titles at that point.

The first women's champion is tougher - even if you think that Kylie should be the star of the division, it's probably better for her to chase the title. Nyla feels like somebody who will get to the final (assuming there is a tournament) but lose. As Joe & Rich said on this week's Flagship, I don't think AEW sees her as ready yet. I guess it could be Britt but she just doesn't feel interesting to me right now. If I had the pencil I'd be thinking about turning her heel. I'd probably go with Shida. I haven't seen much of her but people who watch joshi seem to think highly of her and she has a badass aura that most of the women on this roster lack. Put her over strong in the tournament, if she gets over with the crowd then give her the Asuka push and start building Kylie's quest to eventually beat her.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:07 pm

This company is just giving me what I want. Simple stories. Good in-ring action. Nothing feels really high stakes yet either, which I've said many times...that is what I like from my casual wrestling television.

I might be on an island here, but I really loved the main event from Fight for the Fallen. I thought the work for the most part was rock solid, smooth. The Young Bucks worked their ass off. Dustin Rhodes at 50 years old has been a revelation. Its a damn shame he spent the prime of his career in the WWE where they had him as simply a comedy job guy. I was a big fan of his back in early 90s WCW. He was a staple on Saturday Night, Worldwide, etc. Man, and he's still got it. I don't want the man to retire any time soon. I want more of THE NATURAL Dustin Rhodes. I felt this match lacked that extra gear to really get it to MotYC, but I felt like they could have another match where things get very heated. I for one, want another Rhodes Brothers v. Young Bucks match with some increased stakes.

Kenny Omega v. CIMA. It took me a bit to get into it, but once it really kicked into high gear I was invested. Omega catching the Meteora and giving CIMA a buckle bomb popped me out of my chair.

Lucha Bros v. SCU was a TV match.
Hangman Page v. Kip Sabien was a TV match.
Dark Order v. Evans/Angelico v. Boy and His Dinosaur was a midcard TV match.

Now, I say TV matches...but if this is the type of matches that you give me on TV every week...I'm all in. I thought they were all rock solid, three-star spectrum quality watches with low stakes. Thats what I like, especially for casual viewing.

As for Dark Order...Super Smash Bros are too good to not get over. Maybe they won't get over in this specific incarnation, but they'll eventually get over. I think they are better off as faces, especially Uno.

How f'n over is Jungle Boy and especially Luchasaurus. All In on those dudes right now. They don't even need Marko Stunt with'em. I'd drop that immediately.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by Ckkj14 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:31 pm

Really enjoyed the show again and have high hopes All Out 2 might be show of the year.

Haven't seen the pre show as Fite TV was playing up. On a side note last time i ever use them and hope AEW don't again.

6 Man Tag - Really enjoyed this. I like how they didn't bang it over your head that their was issues between MJF and Spears but at the same time did enough to show tension and keep it authentic. Spears looks a bad ass which I never thought i would say and his match with Cody at All Out 2 has me really excited to see (again a match i didn't think i would say that about) ***1/2

Brandi v Allie - Hated this match. Brandi is a great personality but please keep her away from the ring. I haven't seen enough of Allie to make a judgement but this match sucked. *1/4

Dark Order v Jungle Boy & Luchasauraus v Jack Evans & Angelico - Loved this match. Dark Order needed to get in the ring and show people what they are about as those run ins were doing nothing for them. This match helped get them over as a threat to the division. Luchasauraus & Jungle Boy were the stars of the match though and this was a star making performance for both of them. I would have them win this tournament. The Tag division is definitely a highlight of these early shows. ****

Hangman Page v Kip Sabian - Think i'm in the minority who really enjoyed this match. Seen a few negative reports but this kept me engaged and helped get Sabian over to a level he wasn't before. I do have questions if Page is over enough to put the belt on though so that's why i'd have Jericho win and be your champion heading into TV. ***3/4

Lucha Bros v SCU - Another Tag match i really enjoyed. Luchas Bros always bring it and to a newer audience they will get over massively. The ladder match as ALL Out 2 will be insane and a great way to cap the feud with the Bucks. ***3/4

Kenny Omega v Cima - Match of the night. Haven't seen much of Cima but its obvious he will have a decent place on the card going forward. Kenny gave him a lot but like Will they always want to go out there and have a great match making their opponent look great in the process and I will never have a problem with that. Hopefully this is the start of Kenny putting on some classics in this company. ****1/4

Young Bucks v Rhodes Bros - Very enjoyable match but never really hit the heights of a classic main event that I think these four could have. I'd imagine going out there and having a match of this length was very tough in those conditions but they still put on a very good match. It will be interesting to see where Dustin goes from here and Spears has taken the role I thought he might but there is definitely money in a Cody v Dustin rematch. Cody is too big a star in this company to be in a tag team though. ****

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by mlev76 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:07 am

It seems like each successive show has been slightly worse than the predecessor. All three have been varying levels of good, but this definitely felt like the weakest of the bunch by a good distance. There was nothing that I found great on this show, though I thought a few matches came close.

The good were the tag matches and the six man match. All three of these delivered to some degree or another and did some good building towards the next show.

The bad was the women's match and the Page/Sabian match. The former was legitimately a not good match and I am continually frustrated by how the women's division is booked. As for Page and Sabian, it was a fine match, but the wrong opponent and the wrong match as the go home match for one of your contenders for your world title. Wrestling logic would seem to dictate that Page should win, but I honestly still have it as an almost 50% chance they strap Jericho just to have the biggest star as the first champion.

Semi main really didn't get going until the end and did end up, like a lot of Omega matches for me, just outside the great match range. Really no stakes and they didn't have great chemistry.

The main event was like three separate matches-the fast paced start, the old school work a body part middle and the big finale. I feel like both teams had different agendas for the match and it didn't always work too well. Shave about 5-10 minutes off this and it would have been better.

I'm sure All Out will deliver to some degree, but there's a lot of red flags here that aren't being addressed. They are coming close to the "pass" most people have given them running out once TV begins, so I hope they work out these kinks and have a solid gameplan for the future.

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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by thecubsfan » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:15 am

if I told you "Tully Blanchard just showed up as part of an Elite member's storyline", you would only need one guess to figure out which one, right? You'd have the answer before I finished asking the question, probably.

(That Spear feud would've been more effective if we hadn't seen Cody since the chair shot.)

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Ckkj14
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Re: Official All Elite Wrestling (AEW) Thread

Post by Ckkj14 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:37 am

Shawn Spears is doing very well at getting over in this company. I think i'd have him beat Cody.

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