FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

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Lawsoncomedy
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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:28 pm

So Flo is done but isn't WWN also fucked from here on out?

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Joe Lanza
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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:44 pm

Lawsoncomedy wrote:So Flo is done but isn't WWN also fucked from here on out?
WWN can just go back to running the WWNLive model, and wait around for WWE to bite on adding content.

Flo still has a deal with IPW:UK iirc, so I suppose they have to either let that deal play out, or simply pay them off and cut ties.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by rovert » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:54 pm

Danwaka wrote:This Flo deal genuinely feels like one of those Silicon Valley startups that just have a vague idea, money and little more.
Bingo really. It started with a huge pool of startup capital and they didn't really know what to do with it and it was kind of a contest to spend it. Botter in interviews talked about Flo endlessly recruiting people to the degree it was so hard to keep up with names.

Flo have so much money that right and wrongness of the case may not come into it as Flo might just utilise WWE's legal strategy of his financially draining the other party.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what the EVOLVE roster looks like after this weekend. Also, EVOVE was set to announce a pricey international wrestler for forthcoming shows will be interesting to see if that is still happening. Likewise further down in the road if this has implications for Wrestlecon and their budget for it.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:18 pm

WWN was sleazy (with perhaps a dash of ignorant incompetence) at best, and outright fraudulent at worst.

Maybe i'm a dirty capitalist pig, but working an investor into an advantageous deal, to me, is being savvy at the table. Here's how I see it. My gut tells me Flo was thirsty to make a deal, ANY deal, because they had talked big and delivered nothing. ROH turned them down. International promotions in Asia & Mexico were unrealistic pipe dreams. Deals with small indies or one offs with mid sized indies weren't going to entice subs. Flo wanted to believe the bullshit WWN was dishing, because they had to. If there is no WWN deal, there is no FloSlam. They were desperate, rushed in without doing due diligence, and overpaid drastically to boot. When the subs didn't follow, and FloSports was staring at a giant red number on the FloSlam line, the bosses dug in and Botter & Toby were canned for making a horrendous, poorly researched deal. They were fired for being beaten at the table. Badly.

Coaxing someone into a bad deal is just business. Business is often sleazy. Was WWN fraudulent? Intentionally or otherwise? Probably. Did they break the law? I don't know. If not, then the way I see it, is that Flo made a horrendous business deal, and WWN pulled one off on overly eager, and perhaps desperate, venture capitalists.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by Danwaka » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:12 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:WWN was sleazy (with perhaps a dash of ignorant incompetence) at best, and outright fraudulent at worst. Maybe i'm a dirty capitalist pig, but working an investor into an advantageous deal, to me, is being savvy at the table.
Difference between advantageous and fradulent is that doing the second to get the first includes criminal and legal implications, though. Gabe should know better than to misrepresent and fuck with a potential distribution partner given how badly TNN and ECW's PPV distributers dealt with ECW. Besides the WWE, who the hell is going to deal with them in good faith after a big issue like this? Impact fucked with Spike over Russo and now they barely get 250k on Pop.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:37 pm

Danwaka wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:WWN was sleazy (with perhaps a dash of ignorant incompetence) at best, and outright fraudulent at worst. Maybe i'm a dirty capitalist pig, but working an investor into an advantageous deal, to me, is being savvy at the table.
Difference between advantageous and fradulent is that doing the second to get the first includes criminal and legal implications, though. Gabe should know better than to misrepresent and fuck with a potential distribution partner given how badly TNN and ECW's PPV distributers dealt with ECW. Besides the WWE, who the hell is going to deal with them in good faith after a big issue like this? Impact fucked with Spike over Russo and now they barely get 250k on Pop.
Agree completely. We'll see if they were fraudulent. They may not have been. I'd like to see what a contract lawyer has to say. If WWN provided shady data, but it was the best data they had available or it was exactly what Flo asked for, I wonder where that would fall legally. In any sort of legal proceeding, negotiation, etc you should always answer the questions asked of you and offer nothing more. A savvy negotiator/lawyer/etc gets people to say things they don't want to say. If Flo threw money at WWN after seeing half assed, sloppy data, and didn't work harder to verify, to me that's on them.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by rovert » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:20 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Danwaka wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:WWN was sleazy (with perhaps a dash of ignorant incompetence) at best, and outright fraudulent at worst. Maybe i'm a dirty capitalist pig, but working an investor into an advantageous deal, to me, is being savvy at the table.
Difference between advantageous and fradulent is that doing the second to get the first includes criminal and legal implications, though. Gabe should know better than to misrepresent and fuck with a potential distribution partner given how badly TNN and ECW's PPV distributers dealt with ECW. Besides the WWE, who the hell is going to deal with them in good faith after a big issue like this? Impact fucked with Spike over Russo and now they barely get 250k on Pop.
Agree completely. We'll see if they were fraudulent. They may not have been. I'd like to see what a contract lawyer has to say. If WWN provided shady data, but it was the best data they had available or it was exactly what Flo asked for, I wonder where that would fall legally. In any sort of legal proceeding, negotiation, etc you should always answer the questions asked of you and offer nothing more. A savvy negotiator/lawyer/etc gets people to say things they don't want to say. If Flo threw money at WWN after seeing half assed, sloppy data, and didn't work harder to verify, to me that's on them.
Or if a Botter said/implied to WWN that Flo higher-ups were looking for Wrestling companies with X amount of consumers. Or even aided WWN in presenting that number.

It could get very messy. Botter was very sloppy in his communications:


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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:36 pm

rovert wrote:
Joe Lanza wrote:
Danwaka wrote: Difference between advantageous and fradulent is that doing the second to get the first includes criminal and legal implications, though. Gabe should know better than to misrepresent and fuck with a potential distribution partner given how badly TNN and ECW's PPV distributers dealt with ECW. Besides the WWE, who the hell is going to deal with them in good faith after a big issue like this? Impact fucked with Spike over Russo and now they barely get 250k on Pop.
Agree completely. We'll see if they were fraudulent. They may not have been. I'd like to see what a contract lawyer has to say. If WWN provided shady data, but it was the best data they had available or it was exactly what Flo asked for, I wonder where that would fall legally. In any sort of legal proceeding, negotiation, etc you should always answer the questions asked of you and offer nothing more. A savvy negotiator/lawyer/etc gets people to say things they don't want to say. If Flo threw money at WWN after seeing half assed, sloppy data, and didn't work harder to verify, to me that's on them.
Or if a Botter said/implied to WWN that Flo higher-ups were looking for Wrestling companies with X amount of consumers. Or even aided WWN in presenting that number.

It could get very messy. Botter was very sloppy in his communications:

Heh. Sounds VERY familiar.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by rovert » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:50 pm

It gets worse:



EVOLVE potentially losing it's "WWE pipeline status" would be a really big loss for the company. With it they can pay wrestlers less as in theory they offer exposure instead. Then there's the free advertising WWE provides and the occasional WWE talent to pop a house.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:46 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:WWN was sleazy (with perhaps a dash of ignorant incompetence) at best, and outright fraudulent at worst.

Maybe i'm a dirty capitalist pig, but working an investor into an advantageous deal, to me, is being savvy at the table. Here's how I see it. My gut tells me Flo was thirsty to make a deal, ANY deal, because they had talked big and delivered nothing. ROH turned them down. International promotions in Asia & Mexico were unrealistic pipe dreams. Deals with small indies or one offs with mid sized indies weren't going to entice subs. Flo wanted to believe the bullshit WWN was dishing, because they had to. If there is no WWN deal, there is no FloSlam. They were desperate, rushed in without doing due diligence, and overpaid drastically to boot. When the subs didn't follow, and FloSports was staring at a giant red number on the FloSlam line, the bosses dug in and Botter & Toby were canned for making a horrendous, poorly researched deal. They were fired for being beaten at the table. Badly.

Coaxing someone into a bad deal is just business. Business is often sleazy. Was WWN fraudulent? Intentionally or otherwise? Probably. Did they break the law? I don't know. If not, then the way I see it, is that Flo made a horrendous business deal, and WWN pulled one off on overly eager, and perhaps desperate, venture capitalists.
So it played out exactly as I suspected.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by mlev76 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:20 pm

rovert wrote:It gets worse:



EVOLVE potentially losing it's "WWE pipeline status" would be a really big loss for the company. With it they can pay wrestlers less as in theory they offer exposure instead. Then there's the free advertising WWE provides and the occasional WWE talent to pop a house.
I am at once amazed and not shocked by Flo's foolishness here. Given what we've learned since Thursday, my guess is the lawsuit was a pre-emptive strike by Flo to breach the contract because they weren't collecting the revenue they expected. By painting WWN as the bad guy-and plenty have used this opportunity to help paint WWN this as payback for past slights-Flo could make a break for it without looking completely scummy/foolish.

If anything, them dropping programming this fast leads me to believe this was less about finding a way to renegotiate fees-which was the line some have pushed so far or at least first-and more about sinking Floslam entirely with as minimal damage as possible. WWN's countersuit will be interesting.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:34 pm

mlev76 wrote:
rovert wrote:It gets worse:



EVOLVE potentially losing it's "WWE pipeline status" would be a really big loss for the company. With it they can pay wrestlers less as in theory they offer exposure instead. Then there's the free advertising WWE provides and the occasional WWE talent to pop a house.
I am at once amazed and not shocked by Flo's foolishness here. Given what we've learned since Thursday, my guess is the lawsuit was a pre-emptive strike by Flo to breach the contract because they weren't collecting the revenue they expected. By painting WWN as the bad guy-and plenty have used this opportunity to help paint WWN this as payback for past slights-Flo could make a break for it without looking completely scummy/foolish.

If anything, them dropping programming this fast leads me to believe this was less about finding a way to renegotiate fees-which was the line some have pushed so far or at least first-and more about sinking Floslam entirely with as minimal damage as possible. WWN's countersuit will be interesting.
People are always quick to pile on Gabe/WWN. Some of that is for good reason, but even with that said, it's why I've remained fairly measured through all of this. I took a pretty good beating on Twitter this morning for siding with WWN, but based on what we know so far, they come off as the lesser of two evils. Flo done goofed.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by rovert » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:15 am




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Re: FloSlam Suing WWN

Post by Bix » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:04 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
thisredengine wrote: 5. Firing Botter was a big mistake. The site was his baby and never really became what he originally pitched.
I can confirm that it never really became what he pitched, because I know a lot of the ideas first hand.

Full disclosure. I was in informal talks with Botter for a job with Flo shortly before he was fired. There was no specific title discussed, but it wasn't the same role that McCarron accepted/quit, or the role many others interviewed for. We discussed a number of roles, including writing, "indie hunter"/point man in negotiations with indies, podcasting, and even an on camera role for a behind the desk wrap up/news show covering Flo promotions. I was local, had years of writing & podcasting under my belt, and most importantly, I was in tune with the wrestling scene, something Flo personnel obviously lacked, so it made a ton of sense. So yeah, Botter had a lot of outside the box ideas, and almost none of them came to fruition.

It reached a point where I was asked to submit a resume, which I did, either on the day or day after Botter was let go. That's where things ended, as I was his recruit. Another Flo employee (not on the FloSlam side) warned me that whatever Botter potentially had cooking with me was likely unknown to his bosses. I reached out to Toby to see if my name ever came across his desk, and never heard back. Of course, Toby was eventually fired as well.

RE: NJPW negotiations. I think this is bullshit, unless Botter was bullshitting me. In my conversations with him, he noted that they wanted to negotiate with NJPW, but didn't have the proper connections and continually hit dead leads. In fact, I was asked if I could get them in the door. I know a few people employed by or connected with NJPW, probably not the right ones, but of course I said yes anyway. I was sniffing around for a potential job, after all.
I have to be careful how I reply to this because a decent bit of what I know that's on-point (though far from all of it) was said off the record.

Between your post and stuff said to me privately, the vibe I'm getting is that Botter was being super grandiose in chatting up other reporters/media types even when it had little connection to reality. For example, the alleged offer to buy the Observer (or Observer site, it's not clear), which I had heard Dave told friends about with a dollar amount attached, was something that I was told earlier today was a Botter pipe dream not run by upper management. The story you tell sounds similar.

The whole company sounds increasingly like a clusterfuck, but it still seems likely that they're the wronged party in the WWN dispute. So...yeah.

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Re: FloSlam is Suing WWN & Everybody is Nuts

Post by Hobbes » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:16 am

I debated posting this but it seems too applicable.

When I was a teenager in the late 90s/early 00s, I actually got to witness Jeremy Botter in action. Me and my friends would post on the old Delphi Scott Keith message board and over the years people migrated to a few other boards. Anyway, being in that world, we saw Botter take over a lot of duties on some of Keith's old sites, and we also saw Botter be one of the founders of a site called Emzee.

Emzee was a wrestling site that crashed and burned quickly and spectacularly. Writers were told they'd be paid for their work once some magic ad money deal came in and right around the time that ad deal was supposed to begin, Botter vanished from the site. Ad deal never came in, the site quickly died. Not quite the same as what is going on now, as Botter was fired with FloSlam, but "Botter is at helm of new wrestling venture, makes pie in the sky promises, is gone quickly, promises never come to pass" certainly sounds familiar, doesn't it?

But it was more than that. It's been so long that I forget the details, and I was directly involved in none of it, but Botter definitely had the reputation around certain parts back then of being a liar. There was also a question of if he had hacked into a private message board me and some friends started. In some circles, including ours, he was heavily ridiculed and considered somewhat of a joke. Doing a brief check now of that message board I found a post of someone who dealt with Botter, and I won't reveal their name because I have no idea if they'd want it out there, but they're someone that writes to this day, and someone that you'd know. Here's a quote from them:

"Jeremy Botter is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, and I like him, but he's full of shit when it comes to business-type matters."

Again, sounds familiar, right?

I hesitated to write any of this because we're talking about things that happened fifteen or more years ago. People grow, and lord knows I did stupid things then. Hell, I do stupid things now. I was shocked as hell when I saw that Botter had become a respected MMA journalist, but at the same time, I reminded myself that people deserve second chances, and he seemed to be doing well. But then all this FloSlam stuff happens and I see this last page has multiple people wondering if Botter was trustworthy on certain points, and all I can say is I don't know Jeremy Botter now, and didn't know Jeremy Botter in the past either, but I did know OF a younger Jeremy Botter, and this sounds an awful lot like him.

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