Ring of Honor (Discussion)

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mlev76
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by mlev76 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:06 pm

Danwaka wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:46 pm
This might be a hot take, but I genuinely think Alex Shelly peaked as an attraction in MCMG. Time Splitters was great, but Kushida was the star of the team.

Shelley in 2019 for ROH is like WWE resigning Jinder Mahal at the time of the brand split in 2017. An 'okay, sure' signing, but not a main eventer.
As someone who doesn't hate Jinder as much as most, I still think this is a pretty bad comparison. Shelley was legitimately great during the early MCMG era and was probably underutilized by ROH and then TNA in the latter part of the last decade. He was still pretty good in New Japan, but like the Briscoes, Lethal, King and others, he's not a guy anyone but ROH cares about anymore. That's sad given his talent, but it's a realistic perspective on him at this point in his career.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by Danwaka » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:29 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:06 pm
As someone who doesn't hate Jinder as much as most, I still think this is a pretty bad comparison. Shelley was legitimately great during the early MCMG era and was probably underutilized by ROH and then TNA in the latter part of the last decade. He was still pretty good in New Japan, but like the Briscoes, Lethal, King and others, he's not a guy anyone but ROH cares about anymore. That's sad given his talent, but it's a realistic perspective on him at this point in his career.
He was a major fan favorite back then, yeah. But I'm talking 2019 Alex Shelley, not 2009. He's got as much to give to ROH in a main event capacity right now as Jinder Mahal did in 2017 (or now, really).

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by mlev76 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:12 am

Danwaka wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:29 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:06 pm
As someone who doesn't hate Jinder as much as most, I still think this is a pretty bad comparison. Shelley was legitimately great during the early MCMG era and was probably underutilized by ROH and then TNA in the latter part of the last decade. He was still pretty good in New Japan, but like the Briscoes, Lethal, King and others, he's not a guy anyone but ROH cares about anymore. That's sad given his talent, but it's a realistic perspective on him at this point in his career.
He was a major fan favorite back then, yeah. But I'm talking 2019 Alex Shelley, not 2009. He's got as much to give to ROH in a main event capacity right now as Jinder Mahal did in 2017 (or now, really).
Just because I didn't hate the Jinder title run doesn't mean it was a good idea looking back now. I imagine having Shelley and the rest of last decade's ROH stars being top guys while the new, exciting talent is not pushed higher will likely look equally bad if not worse. Mahal did minimal damage and WWE had more skin to play with. ROH needs a boost now, not the past.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by IIDXias » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:39 pm

Cheap plug alert: I wrote a big long thing about ROH's current woes and how it handed away a lot of its market share to two competitors. Hope you'll check it out! https://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2019/ ... -of-honor/

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by Danwaka » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:31 am

IIDXias wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:39 pm
Cheap plug alert: I wrote a big long thing about ROH's current woes and how it handed away a lot of its market share to two competitors. Hope you'll check it out! https://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2019/ ... -of-honor/
There's something that really comes across when indie veterans talk about the 2000s scene and the occasional peppering of puro guys, a real sense of youth and wistfulness. Joe and Rich also do it it sometimes when talking about ROH.

Anyway, the bulk of what you wrote is spot on, though you perhaps missed a trick with making a comparison to another company (WCW) that worked with NJPW once upon a time, and had an internal faction (nWo) that really became more important than the company and without whom the company found itself with little to offer.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by mlev76 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:45 pm

IIDXias wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:39 pm
Cheap plug alert: I wrote a big long thing about ROH's current woes and how it handed away a lot of its market share to two competitors. Hope you'll check it out! https://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2019/ ... -of-honor/
Pretty good article though I would say that the TNA comparison may be a bit off because ROH has fallen low before (right before the NJPW connection took off) and bounced back. The other thing is you can't necessarily say that NJPW and AEW has taken their market share because realistically, much of what brought in the market share was the Elite and New Japan. I saw two live shows in late 2016 and mid 2017 and on both shows, the most over things were the Bucks, Scurll(who wan't Elite on the first show and joined the Elite on the second), the New Japan guys and Dalton Castle. They've been borrowing their audiences from those two entities for several years now.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by supersonic » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:08 pm


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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by themib » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:09 am

Was told between 600-700, which for ROH on a major wrestling weekend is quite frankly shocking. There were other options including Smash and Destiny, but ROH should be a must on weekends like these, and this time it just wasn't.

Also...


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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by monster mafia » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:00 pm

insider

There was a ringside fan who had a medical episode and passed out during the main event of last night's Summer Supercard. We are told that the fan was attended to by medical professionals and the word is he will be OK.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by John The Drummer » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:08 pm

monster mafia wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:00 pm
insider

There was a ringside fan who had a medical episode and passed out during the main event of last night's Summer Supercard. We are told that the fan was attended to by medical professionals and the word is he will be OK.
A friend of mine was sitting right next to him (in the camo Briscoe shirt) and said dude was drinking and just completely wasted the entire show.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by PrivateRadio87 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:14 pm

A few musings about the Summer Supercard show that, due in large part to a slow day at work, grew into a very long post:

First two matches were alright. Sometimes I watch a TK/Vinny tag, get into it for a bit and forget why I don’t like them. Then they start getting into their character work and it all comes rushing back. Brody manages to crush it in almost every match he turns up in, and while it sometimes looks like the wheels are finally falling off with PCO he’s always still good for a wacky flip or two. **3/4

Marty v. PJ Black was a fine match, clouded by the fucking insane decision by ROH to not announce Marty, but rather the original Silas/PJ match. I like Silas and PJ fine, but I defy you to find one person who was excited to watch Silas Young v. PJ Black on a card called Summer SUPERCARD who isn’t named Silas Young or PJ Black. Even as a staunch defender of the Marty Scurll singles match, I’d happily trade both of these first two matches in for a Villain Enterprises trios defense. They deliver every single time, and are consistently one of the best acts in North American wrestling - and yes, I’ve thought about that and mean it. Lots of people would say the same if they weren’t hidden inside the murky toilet that is 2019 ROH. ***1/4

Lethal/Gresham v. Haskins/Bandido was awesome. They're giving Gresham a character, and Lethal's killer in-ring work is much more palatable without his whole face-of-the-company superhero schtick. Haskins rules in ROH, despite being booked like he slept with Delirious' wife. Dude's had at least three matches that people would be raving about if they happened elsewhere, and you could probably say the same for Bandido. Not as good as the Haskins/Hot Sauce v. Lethal/Gresham Iron Man match (maybe my ROH MOTY so far, for whatever the hell that's worth) but pretty good. ***3/4

I’d be shocked if there’s a bigger Rush mark on this board than me. Honestly, I started watching ROH with some regularity again in large part because of him. I also find myself enjoying recent Dalton Castle matches often enough. That said, get this feud the fuck out of here forever please. From the moment Rush walked out of the ring at MSG, I’ve hated every single thing they’ve done with it since. It even somehow gave us the first bad Dragon Lee singles of the year (I checked: the DJZ, Mephisto and Volador matches all kick the shit out of Lee/Castle). I fell into perhaps the best nap I’ve had all summer - windows open, a lovely breeze, a broken in couch - and even that was ruined by waking up and realizing I had to finish this match. Got okay-ish at the end when Rush gets to act more Rush-ish. **1/2

Tracy Williams and Shane Taylor was as good as it probably could have been. Both of them have been getting better this year, especially Taylor, but ya know. Again, this show is called Summer SUPERCARD and the TV Title match is Shane Taylor against Tracy Williams. Shane's picked up a habit for ending the match right when it's getting good and the crowd's getting hot - see his last defense against Bandido. Grappl says I went ***1/4, but in my memory it's more of a ***.

The CMLL trios was awesome. The crowd got into it and maybe my main gripe with how weirdly this show was booked was in the missed opportunities for getting more eyes on these guys. While AAA picks up steam in the states, I really wish there were more folks following my preferred brand of lucha. All six of these guys usually give a shit and do consistently strong work, but I'm especially happy to have fresh new eyes on Templario and of course, Cavernario. Please, if you haven't gone in on Cavernario's 2019 I'd be happy to personally curate it for you. After Soberano's crappy Jr. Tag League run, I'm always happy to see him look good in one of these too. ***3/4, woulda gone four if not for a couple egregious cases of people forgetting where they were supposed to be.

Matt Taven's title run has been a disaster for the company and rightfully so, but in a vacuum I've really enjoyed the matches (minus the Cobb match, fuck, minus the Cobb match). The hour draw against Lethal and the MSG ladder match were both better than they're given credit for, the PCO defense was better than it had any business being and the defense against Haskins was a legitimately great match. I even really liked the last triple threat against Lethal and King. I think he does great heel work and mostly keeps his deadweight stablemates away. This match is getting a lot of crap for a bad crowd and that guy passing out, but I thought it was really good! This was never going to be a classic and when Shelley took the dude's shoe and threw it at Taven I thought it was a memorable spot one way or another that only made it more fun. My biggest gripe with it was a finisher kickout sequence of Gargano-esque proportions. ***1/2.

Briscoes vs. G.O.D. kicked ass. It was total senseless bullshit the whole way through, and it should have been. I've never really cared for the Briscoes, but this feud has really re-framed the way I look at the Guerillas. Given opponents who a) aren't Togi Makabe and b) want to be there, along with an actual feud, I thought they crushed it. I might be on an island on this one, but I really dug all three of their matches, cared who won or lost and gained a brand new resentment for how New Japan books their tag teams. ****

ROH is weird, man. Sometimes it almost convinces me I like it. I think the most telling thing about this show is that everything I liked most about it was a dead end. G.O.D. and a chunk of the CMLL roster won't be there after this, the clock is ticking on Marty and therefore Villain Enterprises, they took a shit with the Cobb push and folks like Haskins and Bandido are just going to run in circles against the old ROH faithfuls that nobody really wants to watch. Worst of all, they've made me type a novella into a niche wrestling forum. Another funny thing is that aside from two of these matches, I went exactly one quarter star lower than Sean Sedor on the whole card.
Last edited by PrivateRadio87 on Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 pm

Writing that novella has had a net positive effect, though--I'm now half-tempted to go watch it too. You sure you can't jump on to guest on one of our fine podcasts and finish convincing me?

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Re: Ring of Honor (Discussion)

Post by thecubsfan » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:18 pm

excess thoughts after last Saturday's live experience

- Hechicero seemed surprisingly the most over of the CMLL guys in Chicago. The loudest fans for him, and for most of the lucha guys on that show, were a bunch of fans who attend the GALLI lucha libre shows a couple of minutes down the road and they tend towards hardcore favorites. Hechicero is definitely one of those. It didn't generally seem like a big lucha libre turnout. I think MLW's done a better job of marketing in Spanish, but they're also running a building that had a history of lucha libre shows before they got there and built around a star (LA Park) who is well known outside of the lucha bubble. MLW deserves credit for that success though; I've seen lucha shows and American shows around this market for a long time, and it's rare the fanbases cross over.

ROH didn't have to do a lot of work getting NJPW people known in the US when they started coming in more regularly. They were already being showcased in English on AXS, the ROH fanbase knew who they were and why they should care. ROH has to do a lot of the heavy lifting themselves with CMLL, and I'm not sure if that should even be a big priority for ROH at the moment.

- It was neat to see them sell CMLL shirts at the ROH merch stand, something even CMLL doesn't even consistently do well. I was going back and forth about getting the Hechicero shirt (cool shirt, bought too many shirts lately) and was thinking about buying after the show. That wasn't an option; with three matches to go, the merch table staff were packing everything up. They hadn't been that busy once the show started. I was thinking back to the last ROH Chicago Ridge show I went to, where Adam Cole joined the Bullet Club and they took over the merch stand to sell BC shirts by the truckload after the show had ended. Comparing it to the early closed merch booth was more a "times have really changed" moment than the crowd size.

- this feels like pointing out the obvious but Allure stuff hasn't worked all. At least the last time ROH was in, they got some negative "we don't want you here" kind of heat. This time just felt like a nothing happening act. Even if they were over, setting up the Kelly Klein/Angelina Sky match in early April and waiting to actually run until late September would've taken a lot of steam off it. (They really slow-play things in the Women of Honor stuff; Maria Maniac has been there for months without a match.) Whatever additional fans that were supposed to be attracted by their act either haven't appeared or are very quiet. The best thing for ROH would to have Kelly Klein win at the PPV and just move onto something else, but I saw someone suggest Maniac being added to the group as an enforced and that feels both plausible and bad.

- speaking of moving on, Lifeblood ought to put their existence as a unit on the line against the tag titles on the PPV, because they really need to stop existing as a unit if they can't get a win. I'm not desperate to see Haskins & Bandido as tag team champions, but something positive needs to happen for a group that has the stink of failure. I enjoy all three guys, they (& Taven) have done nothing to deserve being the representatives of ROH's 2019 woes, but that's kind of what you see with Lifeblood. Dashwood & Robinson were billed as the group leaders. Neither is around anymore. Finlay is gone too. What's left feels like feels like members 3, 5, 6 in the original group, no particular leader, and a group that mostly loses their feud. Their current identity is about vaguely hating Flip Gordon; most of Twitter vaguely hates Flip Gordon but it doesn't make for a compelling face stable. ROH won't even commit to adding PJ Black being part of the group. PJ Black! I'm not sure "being unable to decide on PJ Black for months" or "PJ Black pretends to be friends with Lifeblood but turns on them" is the most depressing scenario. Both are in play.

I'm disappointed where Bandido has ended up, starting off hot and ending a medium level guy who never gets the big win. Haskins & Williams haven't even had that luck. Maybe Haskins & Bandido get the big win to lead into the UK tour. I hope so. Give them that or try something else. It does feel like Lifeblood was someone's pet idea but you've got to be willing to move on from your favorites when it's not working.

- i have no idea if Joe Hendry is a face or heel. I would bet on him being a face because he's feuding with Dalton but he doesn't come off like one.

- Not sure if anyone's watching the Twitter videos ROH's putting out. Of late, they've had Kenny King giving "you ought to be a heel" type speeches to both Coast2Coast and Rhett Titus. Forming a stable out of people who are barely on the shows does not seem like a great career move for Mr. King. (Cheeseburger and his pals this week would've been fun with the CMLL guys.) Much more interesting was the last show of the tour ending with a video of Kenny King recruiting Rush for something.

I'm assuming Rush is winning the title and would be no matter what Taven is doing. Taven is out of challengers, it's the right time for Rush. It's just that there's really not that many heel challengers for Rush outside of Taven rematches. Silas Young is being set up for something, but I don't know that Rush/King or Rush/Gresham is a big deal even by ROH standards. Rush is a guy who can easily wing back between face and a heel, because he's basically been wrestling as a heel the whole time anyway, so maybe it matters. That King/Rush video at least suggests that maybe Rush might move completely to the rudo side. I do hope they pull the trigger, if only for the widespread bafflement when Kenny King & Rush are suddenly buddies.

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Re: *NEW* ROH Thread. Keep it clean.

Post by PrivateRadio87 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:39 am

Watched the three ROH/CMLL shows, and in case you were wondering if there was anything good on them:

9/6 in Dearborn:

RUSH/Triton: If you've been dipping into these to see what Rush is up to, this one is worth checking out. Short and fun, like any time Rush gets to squash another CMLL guy. Surprised to see Triton here as I thought he was leaving CMLL, but he's usually pretty strong in-ring and does great here with what little he's given.

Haskins/Rhett Titus: In a very clumsy segment, Haskins comes out and essentially places an open challenge. Titus comes out, stumbles over his words, accepts, and the two put on a fine enough match. The cool thing here is ROH pushing Haskins, who's probably been the most consistent in-ring guy they have this year. When I need to explain why I watch this crap, Haskins is always one of the first people I bring up.

Lethal/Gresham v. Castle/Hendry: The Dalton and Hendry feud stuff is super heavy handed and difficult to watch. Gresham and Lethal have their own storyline tensions and do a much better job getting them across. I actually love the Gresham/Lethal tag team. It's a much better use of Lethal than the heroic-face-champion deal ever was, and their matches are good. During a long stretch where Dalton is the legal man, I'd go so far as to say this match kicks ass. Best thing on the card up to this point, even with Castle's standard "I'm embarrassed to be watching this" fare.

Villain Enterprises v. Team CMLL: Not the strongest lineup for team CMLL. There's a point in this match where Okumura is delivering a bulldog and Caprice says, "This is what I love about the partnership with CMLL, we get the cream of the crop." It's harder for me to suspend disbelief for this than for the frankenstein monster on the other team. There are plenty of positives here though, especially as the match escalates. Cavernario is always great. There's a point in this match where he delivers his signature running springboard splash to Brody King and doesn't pin on it, and I can't help but think the only reason is he doesn't want to have it kicked out of. Watching Scurll and Hechicero go at each other is a blast. Villain Enterprises keeps being the best thing in ROH.

9/7 in Chicago:

RUSH v. Cavernario: I really dug this match. Saw people refer to it as an extended squash, but I thought Barbaro got a lot here and these two have obvious history and chemistry.They both pull out fun dives for this one. It's short and real fun, no need to go out of way unless you're a fan of either, but if you're a fan of either I'd say watch this shit.

Team CMLL v. Gresham/Lethal/Cobb: This one's okay. When it starts to pick up it gets fun. They play up Caristico's history again but he doesn't do a lot. The most interesting thing here is that I'd argue Triton is the star of this match, and these are apparently his final CMLL-related dates. Gresham/Lethal still fun together.

Matt Taven (c) v. Volador Jr.: I’m a big Taven apologist since his run-up to and capturing of the title. My stance is he’s done strong work and just so happens to be the face and punchline of a sinking ship because he holds the belt. I’ve also often cited the Volador/Taven CMLL singles matches as a highlight for either of them. That said, this match is just whatever. I dunno if he couldn’t breathe because of a busted nose but Volador seems to gas out a concerning amount these days. He had a match in Puebla a month or two ago against Dragon Lee where he just couldn’t keep up with Lee and looked a little blown up and silly. These days Volador’s best work is making you gasp in short spurts. This match isn’t terrible but let’s just say I won’t be including it in my Taven defense rants. Riccaboni calls every dive over the top rope a “Flight of the Conqueror” (does it with Rush in the earlier match too) as if every luchador in Mexico yoinked it from Matt Taven.

I wouldn't say you need to watch the drawn out Hendry/Taylor draw on this card, but Taylor's been slowly growing on me and it didn't hurt. The four-way of dudes who are in the upcoming tournament looks great on paper but ends up being a cutesy comedy match meant to re-establish Colt. It's short, harmless and has a great finish.

9/8 in Milwaukee:

Hendry v. Scurll: A good match - the first standout of Hendry's for me - though the two have a Britwres history. This match was on pace to crush it until it ends with a goofy Castle distraction finish.

Briscoes/Cavernario v. Lifeblood: This match is fantastic. That’s all. Not a MOTYC or anything, but worth seeking out if you’re a fan of the people in the ring. Brief moments where Bandido and Cavernario clash are thrilling. Maybe the best match of the tour.

Rush/Cobb v. Taven/Vinny: This might be crazy, but outside of that one random Rush/Dragon Lee v. Briscoes tag, this match and the one the night prior are my favorite of Rush's ROH output. I thought it did a great job building suspense toward any encounter between Taven and Rush, and Rush worked weirdly well with Cobb. It takes a lot for me to say nice things about a Vinny Marseglia match, but here we are.

I didn't watch the Lethal/Gresham v. Silas/Woods match from this night because really how much of this stuff can I realistically sit through, but I bet it was pretty good.

BlizzardAcolyte wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 pm
Writing that novella has had a net positive effect, though--I'm now half-tempted to go watch it too. You sure you can't jump on to guest on one of our fine podcasts and finish convincing me?
I find people get upset with me when I try to convince them to watch ROH.
thecubsfan wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:18 pm
speaking of moving on, Lifeblood ought to put their existence as a unit on the line against the tag titles on the PPV, because they really need to stop existing as a unit if they can't get a win. I'm not desperate to see Haskins & Bandido as tag team champions, but something positive needs to happen for a group that has the stink of failure. I enjoy all three guys, they (& Taven) have done nothing to deserve being the representatives of ROH's 2019 woes, but that's kind of what you see with Lifeblood. Dashwood & Robinson were billed as the group leaders. Neither is around anymore. Finlay is gone too. What's left feels like feels like members 3, 5, 6 in the original group, no particular leader, and a group that mostly loses their feud. Their current identity is about vaguely hating Flip Gordon; most of Twitter vaguely hates Flip Gordon but it doesn't make for a compelling face stable. ROH won't even commit to adding PJ Black being part of the group. PJ Black! I'm not sure "being unable to decide on PJ Black for months" or "PJ Black pretends to be friends with Lifeblood but turns on them" is the most depressing scenario. Both are in play.
I sorta disagree. I think it's a shame that they're saddled with the shitty name and gimmick, and that the ghosts of Tenille, Juice and Finlay hang over them, but I also think the three of them are doing some of the best work in the company together or separate. It seems like they've shook the whole PJ Black thing (at least I hope so), and if being a unit keeps them in matches against people like Villain Enterprises or Lethal/Gresham, it's only to our benefit.
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Re: Ring of Honor (Discussion)

Post by mlev76 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:55 pm



It's almost like the Elite put a curse on ROH for not giving up the rights to All In. They belt up Rush and a few hours later, the CMLL relationship is seemingly in tatters. Maybe they can continue it without Rush and Dragon Lee being roster members, but I don't see how that happens.

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