WWE (Discussion)

WWE, TNA, and all U.S./Canada based graps talk
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BoxingRobes
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:46 am

The WWE has had Brock Lesnar for over five years. They have used him to put over (but ultimately won feuds over) John Cena, HHH, and Goldberg with the ultimate goal of at 6 years to finally put over Roman Reigns.

I'd say that is a gross misuse of the only character with real clout anymore, but thats just me I guess.

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steve
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by steve » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:22 am

BoxingRobes wrote:The WWE has had Brock Lesnar for over five years. They have used him to put over (but ultimately won feuds over) John Cena, HHH, and Goldberg with the ultimate goal of at 6 years to finally put over Roman Reigns.
What is truly amusing is that Joe and Stowman have both been put away with 1 F5 to re-build the move as a devastating finisher, just so Reigns can survive 3 or 4 at Mania and win, just like he took 4 AA's to beat Cena.

I know about Make a Wish and selling merch, but if Reigns is the future I really think last night was the time to turn Cena heel. I still think that wrestling thrives on a face beating a heel, rather than this idea of who's the best fighter. And the narrative that WWE is pushing that Reigns has had better matches than Cena ever did, or is the greatest of all time, I think just diminishes their product and the vast library on the Network, rather than promoting Reigns.

WWE had a chance to re-create a moment like Austin in the sharpshooter last night. Instead, they put on just another match.

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BoxingRobes
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:16 am

That WAS the fear with putting these pretty pivotal matches on essentially, a throwaway PPV. These should have been BIG MATCHES. Both for Reigns AND Braun. Reigns is the planned future top guy, and at least I can respect their formula for trying to make him a star, even if I don't think he is or will be because of it.

However, Braun was lightening in a bottle and is everything this company should want in a potential top heel or shade of gray anti-hero (whatever)...I thought it was incredibly important that not only Braun WIN here, but win convincingly over Lesnar. You can't recapture that momentum down the road that Braun had coming into this event...similarly, I don't think you can accelerate Joe ever again quite like you did in the lead up with Lesnar.

Two potential "star making" matching...both incredibly similar and ultimately end up being throw away matches and opportunities to actually make a "star" in much less time then it would to build up Reigns. They didn't kill both dead, but their momentum crashed into a brick wall.

This is the type of booking I'd expect from Lucha Underground...where they bulk tape and can't pivot after a guy catches on (the Pentagon Paradigm)...not from a show that is constantly re-writing the angles the day of on a cocktail napkin.

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Danwaka
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by Danwaka » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:32 pm

Kind of reminds me of Luger beating Hogan for the belt then dropping it back to him, Boxing. His popularity with the fans never recovered.

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armsofsleep
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by armsofsleep » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:04 pm

I actually disagree with the view of Cena/Reigns as a "passing of the torch" type match. Despite the hand raise at the end. The story was between the real ace of the company (Reigns) and a guy who was delusional and still thought he was ace because he wrestled a few months a year. Whether that's intentional or not with WWE, you never really know. It might almost go too far in making Cena look a bit like a geek, but I don't mind it since he's pretty teflon at this point. I actually think that if Cena had lost to AJ at the Rumble, you could've kicked off a really good "worst year ever" story for him. I get why they didn't, since it's hard to do that when he's not around.

I think it's time to stop viewing Reigns as a future guy who needs to get made, and take him for what he is. He's not 2003 Cena, he's 2009 Cena. He's been on top and will remain on top until he retires. He'll have good matches and good promos, and shit the bed a few times a year. It's okay to not like that, but I feel like the idea of "THIS is the story that will get Roman over!" stuff is missing the point. Him beating Lesnar clean is not his coronation, it's his victory lap.

Braun losing that way is insane though. Coach him into being able to talk, tweak his character, turn him, you have a poor man's Stone Cold. It's not that fucking hard. Does anyone want more Brock/Heyman stuff?

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mlev76
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by mlev76 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:38 pm

I am fully on board with Braun winning last night, but don't see him as doomed/unable to be easily salvaged. Last night was the Misawa moment that should have had Vince speaking to Brock like Baba did to Jumbo in my mind, but clearly they don't see that as being the case. Much of what will be with Braun will be determined by what happens starting tonight and going forward. He is salvageable, but they need to get him a big win sooner rather than later.

As for Reigns, I find it odd people think that they see him as having to be made. To me, its clear they believe he already is made much in the same way they felt Cena was made back in 2005 even if he wasn't quite there yet (and 2005 Cena was more over than 2017 Reigns). Reigns is their guy and they want him vs. Brock at Mania. They chickened out on having him win in 2015 and i have to imagine they must regret that. In terms of his match with Cena, I think it was as good as it could be (and to me, that was 4 1/4 stars). It told a good story, the match progressed nicely to a great finish and the right guy won.

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Garuda
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by Garuda » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:06 pm

mlev76 wrote: As for Reigns, I find it odd people think that they see him as having to be made. To me, its clear they believe he already is made much in the same way they felt Cena was made back in 2005 even if he wasn't quite there yet (and 2005 Cena was more over than 2017 Reigns). Reigns is their guy and they want him vs. Brock at Mania. They chickened out on having him win in 2015 and i have to imagine they must regret that. In terms of his match with Cena, I think it was as good as it could be (and to me, that was 4 1/4 stars). It told a good story, the match progressed nicely to a great finish and the right guy won.
Although I disagree with the match evaluation, (I didn't think it was bad, but it bored me), I think that's a fantastic point about Reigns. It's easy to think about him as someone WWE is still trying to make work, and to some degree they are, but to a much larger degree I think you're right - he's already made it to them and they just have to put on maybe some finishing touches.

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BoxingRobes
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:55 pm

armsofsleep wrote:I actually disagree with the view of Cena/Reigns as a "passing of the torch" type match. Despite the hand raise at the end. The story was between the real ace of the company (Reigns) and a guy who was delusional and still thought he was ace because he wrestled a few months a year. Whether that's intentional or not with WWE, you never really know. It might almost go too far in making Cena look a bit like a geek, but I don't mind it since he's pretty teflon at this point. I actually think that if Cena had lost to AJ at the Rumble, you could've kicked off a really good "worst year ever" story for him. I get why they didn't, since it's hard to do that when he's not around.

I think it's time to stop viewing Reigns as a future guy who needs to get made, and take him for what he is. He's not 2003 Cena, he's 2009 Cena. He's been on top and will remain on top until he retires. He'll have good matches and good promos, and shit the bed a few times a year. It's okay to not like that, but I feel like the idea of "THIS is the story that will get Roman over!" stuff is missing the point. Him beating Lesnar clean is not his coronation, it's his victory lap.

Braun losing that way is insane though. Coach him into being able to talk, tweak his character, turn him, you have a poor man's Stone Cold. It's not that fucking hard. Does anyone want more Brock/Heyman stuff?
Please tell me you aren't trying to say this is in the same spectrum as some sort of Okada-Tanahashi type storyline / dynamic.

What I saw was an incredibly unmotivated John Cena going through the motions. I am not sure about what anyone else thought of the build and even the match, but this was paint-by-numbers Cena build in a box, complete with half-hearted Cena putting over Roman after the match and on Raw Talk.

It was weird and I wasn't a big fan of the match. Felt like it was going in slow motions.

Cena looked TIRED.

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armsofsleep
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by armsofsleep » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:06 pm

I literally said the next sentence that I wasn't sure how intentional it was, but I do think Cena communicated it. He's very subtly changed his character in recent years from a dominant guy to a crafty veteran who's still great. Completely disagree about him being unmotivated or the match being bad, and I was way way lower on the build than everyone else. In both good and bad ways, it felt a LOT like a NJPW main event. Finisher spam, a simple story on a big stage, and maybe a bit too reliant on the crowd being molten lava. I didn't really love the Okada/Tanahashi feud so I can't really speak to that comparison as a positive, but I didn't find them too far off. Besides, this was their first match. If we are going the NJPW main event feud route we still have 20 more matches until the story is finished and you can actually judge it.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by mlev76 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:35 pm

armsofsleep wrote:I literally said the next sentence that I wasn't sure how intentional it was, but I do think Cena communicated it. He's very subtly changed his character in recent years from a dominant guy to a crafty veteran who's still great. Completely disagree about him being unmotivated or the match being bad, and I was way way lower on the build than everyone else. In both good and bad ways, it felt a LOT like a NJPW main event. Finisher spam, a simple story on a big stage, and maybe a bit too reliant on the crowd being molten lava. I didn't really love the Okada/Tanahashi feud so I can't really speak to that comparison as a positive, but I didn't find them too far off. Besides, this was their first match. If we are going the NJPW main event feud route we still have 20 more matches until the story is finished and you can actually judge it.
Not sure comparing it to Okada/Tanahashi is fair to either feud especially since, at this point, it's a one off match. What you are saying about Cena has clearly been his mo this year past the Rumble match with AJ. This was his best match since then and it wasn't especially close. I think the story of the match was well done as it progressively built from a fairly middling beginning to a better middle and a great end. I still like the tag match better, but I had them both at the same star rating (4 1/4)

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BoxingRobes
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by BoxingRobes » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:52 pm

Guess I'm the low man on it. Felt incredibly half hearted all around.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:19 pm

I'm with you. First half of the match was egregiously slow and dull and the second half was mundane finisher spamming just for the sake of it. Did not match the tenor of the build whatsoever IMO.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by CThrash13 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:21 pm

I could've lived without Reigns kicking out of 4 or 5 AA's (including a top-rope one and a double one), but I enjoyed the match overall. I'm not sure it lived up to the hype I put on it (expected 4.5 stars), but I still enjoyed it (more like 3.75 or 4 star). The right guy won though, and the mission was accomplished.

Brock/Braun literally went about the worst way it possibly could've. I had a few possibilities in my head, yet that was the worst outcome of all. First and foremost, Braun should be the Universal Champion right now. I get why he isn't, but the time was better than it may ever be. That being said, I would've been okay with Lesnar winning and taking a beating from Braun after or even last night on RAW. If Strowman beat down Lesnar and put him out for awhile storyline wise, it would've made much more sense. I understand that would lead to another Lesnar vs. Strowman match, but that's fine with me. There's just no reason to build Braun for months and have him crushed in 7 minutes.

They could've written off Lesnar due to injury, have Braun win the title in the meantime, and then have Lesnar face him at Royal Rumble or whenever. Regardless of who wins that match, Roman gets his shot at Mania and gets the huge payoff like they want. But in the meantime, we have a dominant Braun on TV with the biggest title in the company around his waist.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by NutCrack » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:46 am

He wasn't crushed though, he was defeated. The next night on Raw he went on his rampage and most people will forget the loss.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by CThrash13 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:12 pm

NutCrack wrote:He wasn't crushed though, he was defeated. The next night on Raw he went on his rampage and most people will forget the loss.
We (fans who post at VoW and other wrestling forums) aren't most people though! Haha. Your reply points out the reason Vince and the rest of the booking team get away with such crappy booking on a consistent basis. The casual fan still looks at Strowman as a beast because he destroyed some guys on RAW. The hardcore fans who have watched for years knows Strowman was defeated by one F-5 in a blah match in 7 minutes at No Mercy. The same hardcore fans witnessed the brutality that Strowman hit Lesnar with a month or so earlier at Summerslam and numerous times on RAW in between. Crazy!!

That's the most frustrating part of being a die-hard WWE fan (wrestling fan in general), but it's just part of it!

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