WWE (Discussion)

WWE, TNA, and all U.S./Canada based graps talk
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Rich Kraetsch
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:01 pm

Alan4L wrote:Watched a bunch of stuff last night and all was fine but the combination of flat crowds and (for the most part) uncreative work made it so nothing really resonated with me in a big way like most other wrestling I watch.

- Styles vs Owens was alright but there’s very little spark in their matches for me. Hoping the PPV will see them hit a new gear.
- Cena vs Shinsuke had big match feel but then became a pretty average SD main event in short order. Good match but felt like it was going to be more when they came to the ring.
- Gable vs Rusev was probably my favourite thing I watched. Really enjoyed that. Would love for them to have some serious 20 minute epic feeling clashes. I think their styles complement each other and they could absolutely pull it off.
- Tommy vs Fish from NXT. Well wrestled, intense match. SHOCKINGLY AWFUL CROWD. Full Sail is the new Differ Ariake. An absolute graveyard. I want to watch Tommy vs Kyle but I feel I may as well watch it on mute and stick a podcast on while I do.

So yeah, a serious lack of spark for me in the stuff they’re putting out. Dunno how they’re gonna turn around these crowd reactions outside of your key market hardcore cities. Feels like damage has been done that they may not be able to undo for a long long time.
Alan, did someone send you an advanced copy of the flagship we recorded last night?

We echo a lot of what was said here particularly points #2 and #4. The NXT crowds are AWFUL, crowd-destroyingly quiet. The Gargano/Mendoza match may as well have happened in a funeral home. We have a few theories we talk about on the show but the one I'll bring up here because I'm interested in everyone's thoughts is the lack of importance that crowd feels to NXT as a whole.

When NXT "arrived" on the scene, Full Sail was it. Full Sail was the lifeblood of that brand. They'd invest in the character, watch the rise and see the climax at TakeOver. Now they see the rise (this has been mitigated to an extent too as they've gone more to the hire an already established guy route) but don't get the climax and maybe as a whole, they don't feel as invested in the product because the product doesn't invest in them anymore. I liken it to the ECW Arena after 1999. For so many years the ECW Arena was ECW. As the arena went so did the company and vice versa. After 1999 they kind of lost that and it never really recovered. Could the same be happening in Full Sail?

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armsofsleep
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:06 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
armsofsleep wrote:TBH with a slightly better crowd I'd have Nakamura/Cena over like 80% of the G1, but I love shorter main event style matches. I also found a lot of the super hyped G1 matches (Naito/Ibushi, Omega/Suzuki, Omega/Elgin especially) disappointing compared to the insane hype they'd been getting. Plus NXT has been great. I think the build to Summerslam has overall been good, even if I think the event will wind up being better on paper than in reality. It also helps that most of us watching skip half of every single G1 show because it's completely unimportant.
Woah, that's lofty. I thought the match was absolutely nothing special. I do however agree the match would have been better with a better crowd but this is somewhat of a chicken and egg scenario. Was the crowd bad because it was bad or was the crowd bad because the match didn't do much to get them going. Nakamura's go in the corner and make funny faces a few times schtick isn't connecting on a larger level.
I actually think it might not be working. It was in Cleveland, so not a smarky town but not Corpus Christi either. The entrances were pretty timid in terms of crowd reaction, and even before the match started, the chants were typical Cena/Sucks instead of what you'd want (which is for the audience to recognize it as a dream match and cheer the same way Cena/Styles did). And it was basically 3 minutes of taunts, 6 minutes of fun back and forth, and then a great finishing stretch. So I can totally get people not liking that it wasn't presented as "epic". But considering it was originally meant to have a run-in finish, you can see why they worked it that way.

Anyway, even though I liked it a lot, it's hard to get excited for Nakamura/Jinder at Summerslam because it either ends with Corbin cashing in or Nakamura winning the title to meh reaction. It doesn't help that it's basically impossible for the match to be good with a sleepwalking Nak and Jinder.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by achillesforever6 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:09 pm

I think the fall of the Full Sail crowd happened around the time Takeover Brooklyn was announced, I think when they realized that NXT was outgrowing their little computer college campus they lost the spark to be hot all the time.

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Brandon Howard
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by Brandon Howard » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:10 pm

Expectations about what NXT shows were going to be drastically changed since 2014. It was first strictly a WWE developmental brand. When it produced great matches, people didn't have their hopes up and were surprised and it was like 'whoa look what's going on over here.'

I haven't tried this but go back and watch some of the early Takeovers. They were hailed I think in part because they consistently exceeded expectations, and thereafter built-up expectations for future shows. I suspect watching older Takeovers with newer eyes will be an underwhelming rewatch versus what it felt like in real-time.

NXT was an emerging treat, a surprise, an overachiever. It's now a brand fans expect to deliver some of the best wrestling in the world.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by ODonnell » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:13 pm

The reason (or part of) the reason Full Sail died was they started selling the tickets to the NXT tapings on line as opposed to solely at the venue at the box office. I would estimate this happened about a year ago, and the NXT regulars were FURIOUS because scalpers were buying up seats and selling $20 tickets for $80-$90 online. Evenutally a lot of them stopped going when they couldn't get tickets, and now they won't even sell out on the day tickets gets released anymore because the hardcores stopped even trying. They've also switched to 4 show tapings instead of 3 show tapings, which will definitely tire out the crowd more. And the other reason the hardcores stopped going was because NXT changed their after show policy to not let fans wait for talents in the parking lots to take a million pics with.

There's a lot of good people on twitter to follow that go to the NXT tapings that seem like pretty cool people (Jacob Cohen, JJ williams who's the Observer NXT reporter) but jesus christ, there's a ton of self entitled babies too. My single favorite NXT moment of all time was Kevin Owen's pre-Brooklyn takeover promo on the Full sail crowd, who were booing any mention of Brooklyn because they wouldn't get takeovers anymore.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:17 pm

Brandon Howard wrote:Expectations about what NXT shows were going to be drastically changed since 2014. It was first strictly a WWE developmental brand. When it produced great matches, people didn't have their hopes up and were surprised and it was like 'whoa look what's going on over here.'

I haven't tried this but go back and watch some of the early Takeovers. They were hailed I think in part because they consistently exceeded expectations, and thereafter built-up expectations for future shows. I suspect watching older Takeovers with newer eyes will be an underwhelming rewatch versus what it felt like in real-time.

NXT was an emerging treat, a surprise, an overachiever. It's now a brand fans expect to deliver some of the best wrestling in the world.
Takeover R Evolution was two squashes, a 6 minute tag, a good women's match (though way overshadowed by future successes in retrospect), a great debut, and then one of the best endings to a storyline of this decade. Zayn winning the title, Owens debuting and then turning, and Demon Balor were all so so good that it's easy to forget that the show is pretty typical affair in terms of match quality. You can find a boatload of indie shows from that year with batter match lineups on paper.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by achillesforever6 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:18 pm

My favorite story which is probably bullshit is now there are a section of fans shhing the crowd because they want to hear Mauro's commentary
armsofsleep wrote:Aren't the dead Full Sail crowds due mostly to the marathon taping schedules? I do think that the crowd is bad (the lack of consistent reactions for Hero, Almas, etc is pretty embarassing) but when the Takeover crowds are usually great, it's hard to think that it's not just due to the taping schedule. I mean, if we ever get a Full Sail Takeover again, I think they would be fine.
Honestly is four tapings that bad? I remember earlier this year going to a ROH show that started at 7 and ended at midnight and the crowd was hot throughout the show. This being Pittsburgh is noteworthy because the city is up there with Corpus Christi in having really bad quiet crowds. What I'm saying is move NXT to Pittsburgh because Stage AE is a nice venue for wrestling and I can go gambling at the casino after a show ;)

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John The Drummer
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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by John The Drummer » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:04 pm

There's a big difference between crowds being dead, and crowds wanting to sit and take in and enjoy a good match. Yes, they do tend to be A LOT quieter than they used to be, but when it came to Black/O'Reilly, I feel they were just sitting and enjoying the match without having to be annoying with random "CM PUNK!" or whatever chants. It's ok to just watch wrestling without distracting yourself with trying to start a chant to be on TV.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:59 pm

John The Drummer wrote:There's a big difference between crowds being dead, and crowds wanting to sit and take in and enjoy a good match. Yes, they do tend to be A LOT quieter than they used to be, but when it came to Black/O'Reilly, I feel they were just sitting and enjoying the match without having to be annoying with random "CM PUNK!" or whatever chants. It's ok to just watch wrestling without distracting yourself with trying to start a chant to be on TV.
Would it kill them to make some noise and let the guys know they are excited about the things they are doing and the story they are telling?

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by cbacon87 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:09 pm

I've said a bunch of stuff about the NXT crowd in the NXT thread, but long story short, I think maybe Full Sail is romanticised a bit as a surefire great crowd (go watch the Titus O'Neill main events for example), but at the same time it has gotten worse recently. And there's no real way of knowing, but it'd be interesting to know how different the 'makeup' of the crowd is to, say, two years ago.

There's two big things for me recently. Number one, listen to the reactions that O'Reilly and Fish got. Or Strong when he debuted. Merely being a big star on the indies doesn't matter anymore to Full Sail. And I feel like it used to. The last set of tapings, you had four people opposite the hard cam wearing different Bullet Club shirts, from memory there was definitely Cody's one and I'm pretty sure Scurll's one. Maybe this is fan stereotyping, but maybe the Cody Bullet Club shirt owners aren't watching a ton of reDRagon. Or, to put it more succinctly, maybe they're drawing from a certain section of smarter fan.

The starkest example of the bad Full Sail crowd recently was during Ohno versus Black. Ohno's a weird one in the same vein as Itami where he's never really been beloved in NXT, but even so, people didn't care that they were seeing Chris Hero versus Tommy End. That's not necessarily a criticism, or an expectation, I just wonder how different that would have been a few years ago. The other thing about it was, it's not simply a matter of volume. I ended up people watching during that match and you could really tell from body language the crowd didn't care, which was kinda sad. Maybe that's a symptom of the long tapings, but again, I think there's more to it than that.

The second thing that's struck me is that nobody is getting over on the back of Full Sail anymore. It used to be that, whether NXT was on a hot run or it wasn't, the crowd had their favourites and their cult favourites. That crowd dragged people like Breeze, Emma, Bayley, Sasha, Enzo and Cass up an extra level. That doesn't happen anymore. There's no Tye Dillinger to that crowd anymore. There's not even a Blue Pants. At most there's Gargano, sometimes Black and Lorcan but only when he starts to hit people really really hard. The last thing that Full Sail really got behind in that way was Roode. And that's a big change.

I actually didn't think the crowd were that bad for this week's show compared to some recent ones. That's no necessarily a big compliment. For what it's worth, Black/O'Reilly was a very un-WWE like match and didn't have the usual ups and downs. But I do think Full Sail is quickly becoming more of a detriment to the show than the positive it used to be.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by supersonic » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:26 pm




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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by achillesforever6 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:22 am

Man the Revival has the worst luck, getting injured all the time and being drafted to Raw, hopefully it requires minor surgery and he's only out for a few weeks.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by supersonic » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:29 pm


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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by mlev76 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:33 pm

supersonic wrote:
Could be wrong, but I believe this was the last missing piece in terms of full world penetration.

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Re: Official WWE Thread

Post by NutCrack » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:33 pm

Has there ever been a Summerslam - ever - which has seemed so weak on paper? It's a one match card and outside of the main event I have no interest in anything.

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