VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Talk about shows from the Voices of Wrestling podcast network and argue with us here.
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Joe Lanza
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VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:06 pm

If VOW is irrelevant, what does that say about Impact? Mox is All Out. WWE proudly defends their ground on Wednesday's. Bouncin' Around Japan. Bouncin' Around The Indies.


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Ewan
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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by Ewan » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:51 pm

I think regarding Impact, there are sort of bubbles of fandom. If you look at reddit, or other comment heavy sites, Impact get quite a few comments weekly. Far, far more than ROH for example. On my regular comment site, /wooo/, everyone raves about the show. It's a cult show and people like underdogs.

I mean you asked the question, in what area is Impact outperforming other shows and the answer is: booking long term and logical story lines and putting out episodic wrestling television.

Also why does Joe sound so angry when talking about Impact. He spent 40 minutes just repeating "impact is irrelevant" based on some dumbass twitter comment. You guys could probably get someone from Impact on the show to do an interview and talk about the current tv show, instead of reacting to some dumb tweet by one crazy tna mecca guy.

I mean sure not as many people watch Impact, but it feels a bit overkill when the host of the podcast is saying "tna is fucking irrelevant" for like ten minutes in a row. They're a small indie now, but they're still putting out shows and giving people deals. So if you're more relevant than Impact, then you probably have the power to damage their standing even more in the eyes of wrestling fandom, right? Impact have been doing a lot of good things with their product even with a tiny budget, And now, one of the most listened to podcasts in wrestling just told all their viewers that the show is irrelevant. Image means a lot and It's unfair on the hard workers there for people to bury the company like that, even if that wasn't your intention, that was the outcome of that segment.

I still think you guys are the best wrestling site out there, but given how important "buzz" is to the wrestling fandom is, A segment that long telling people over and over that Impact, which is essentially an indie with a tv show, isn't relevant, felt mean spirited. Especially when they are putting out such a good product. You are right that you have a lot of relevance in the wrestling fandom, and also that in your fandom segment at least, Impact don't. But if the only thing you ever say about Impact is "they have no relevance", well that's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, because then all the people in your bubble, will then not talk about Impact because you've told them they are irrelevant. If you tweeted out positive things every now and then, or reviewed some of the shows critically, you might actually cultivate that relevancy in your own base.you guys are the tastemakers here!



As for DDT, it's good to see the Takeshita/Endo match having enough hype around it still. It's probably my MOTY so far. I though the pacing was rocket fueled and they went hard for 30 minutes. The Asuka/Akito Lighttube match is, as you say, "performance art", when I was watching, I imagined them doing it in some kind of art festival. Worth watching though. As for Takeshita, He's certainly in contention for wrestler of the year right now, not just for the quality of the matches he's been having but the sheer breadth of matches. From powerbombing monsters on trucks in the US, to having those matches with Endo and Satomura, as well as being of the keys to the All Out/Sendai show, and then just recently being part of the Poccharri show where he had a really emotional match with Imanari, he's just had a year where he's showing what wrestling is all about.
Last edited by Ewan on Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:40 pm

Ewan wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:51 pm
If you tweeted out positive things every now and then, or reviewed some of the shows critically, you might actually cultivate that relevancy in your own base.you guys are the tastemakers here!
I think that's part of why the "difficulty" in watching Impact is such a big talking point for them; you can't have the chance to watch those positive things that you can then pass along to the masses, if watching the product itself involves jumping through hoops.

Besides, it's not like they don't say positive things about Impact: they've praised just about PPV Impact has put out since I've joined the forums, Mr.Lanza was entirely fair when he did/analyzed the TV reviews on the Patreon, and well, I assume Mr.Sinclair is a part of this site for a reason.

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by Ewan » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:55 pm

I think this site is great, and VOW guys have always been positive and fair about the product, this episode just felt a bit much, and like I said, when you're an Impact fan on the internet, sometimes you get sensitive to this kind of thing, because so many times, you encounter people who don't give the show a chance because of some weird thing about it "not being cool". Wrestling fans can be very herd-like creatures sometimes! Most Impact fans don't have weird pretensions about the status of the show and their relevancy, they just want it to be treated like any other promotion.

Unfortunately, one of the legacies of the Monday Night Wars period is the obsession with tv ratings (so much that TNA were called failures for "only" getting two million viewers) and the idea that wrestling fans have to "choose sides". It's led to a lot of fans developing irrational hatred for TNA/Impact. I'm not saying that the VOW hosts are these people, but that kind of segment won'tt help the perception of Impact among the more malleable fans

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by mlev76 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:42 pm

Ewan wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:55 pm
I think this site is great, and VOW guys have always been positive and fair about the product, this episode just felt a bit much, and like I said, when you're an Impact fan on the internet, sometimes you get sensitive to this kind of thing, because so many times, you encounter people who don't give the show a chance because of some weird thing about it "not being cool". Wrestling fans can be very herd-like creatures sometimes! Most Impact fans don't have weird pretensions about the status of the show and their relevancy, they just want it to be treated like any other promotion.

Unfortunately, one of the legacies of the Monday Night Wars period is the obsession with tv ratings (so much that TNA were called failures for "only" getting two million viewers) and the idea that wrestling fans have to "choose sides". It's led to a lot of fans developing irrational hatred for TNA/Impact. I'm not saying that the VOW hosts are these people, but that kind of segment won'tt help the perception of Impact among the more malleable fans
I think if you're gonna listen to/read stuff from this site and its contributors, you're gonna have to accept that the critical and sometimes negative pen will be turned towards your promotion of choice at some point. Joe and Rich (Joe in particular) don't really sugarcoat much and do say what I believe they genuinely believe. Are they always right ? No. Are some of their opinions unfair to some and/or colored by biases? Yup. But, I think they're up front about their feelings on things and don't pretend to be unbiased.

As to the show itself, I would personally have Pac beat Omega. Omega is pretty much untouchable in the minds of the core AEW fanbase and another loss will not hurt him as much as a win would help Pac. Of course, if Pac isn't going to be back on the regular, then having Omega win would be the play.

I also don't agree that the new NXT will be so markedly different than the current product. The use of main roster talent is probably not as easy of a thing as having Raw and SDL wrestlers on each show currently (it will become more difficult to do that too once SDL on Fox starts). Not saying its impossible, but I don't expect them to lean heavily on folks from the main roster. If anything, they'll likely bring in 205 Live and NXTUK talent and non TV PC talent more often.

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by Ewan » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:58 pm

the problem with Omega and Pac (and basically the fact that AEW have had 4 ppvs before they launch tv) is that they seem to be blowing through a lot of big matches with very little build. I've always been of the opinion that to take a match from good to great, you need a great story to build the feud. This doesn't have one, so my interest just isn't there. Out of all the Elite members, Omega seems the most chilled and likely to put others over, though of course it's no his decision, but he may angle to lose this one, just so they can have an open door for Pac in the future.

Page vs Jericho is a more interesting one, because the first champion sets the tone for the company and the debut tv show. If jericho wins, the usual trolls with go off about having an ex wwe guy as the first champ, but he's probably the smart choice, as it means when they debut on tv, he's the top dog that everyone's chasing after. Page is the guy who should be champion, but it's too early, and his booking has been poor (what were they thinking having him go 19 minutes with kip sabian?)

As for NXT, now that the talent are reportedly getting real contracts, that means it's all "main roster" from now on. :)

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by Danwaka » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:09 am

> PAC is Welsh

Uh... no.

But it's fine, I guess. It's not like PAC is relevant or anything.

Edit:

Corrected by VOW, followed by correct prediction of slandering.

And Newcastle is one of those border regions in Northern England and Southern Scotland that perfectly exemplifies the joke about the British Isles having a new accent every thirty miles.

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by Murcatto » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:36 am

The Bucks have said that Okada got them into NJPW. It's a really nice story.

I'm someone who's still not 100% convinced PAC had a visa issue and here's why. Dave Meltzer. He's been adamant it wasn't a visa issue all along and he doubled down on the Board ("If it was a visa problem, wouldn't I have reported that? I'm going to make up this intricate story and spend all this time when I could just say visa problem?") For this to be purely a visa thing and not a booking thing, both of the following must be true:

1. Meltzer got worked by AEW and then didn't do any follow-up investigation when the visa rumours started. Dave's been in this business for the last 40 years which means he's had con men trying to work him for the last 40 years. I think he can tell when people are trying to bullshit him by this point. He also tends not to print anything without getting it double sourced first. Say what you will about Dave but he clearly takes pride in being a good journalist - so the idea that he wouldn't investigate the visa angle when other wrestling media reported it and just lazily stuck with his original story doesn't seem likely to me. I also don't buy into the idea that he's in the bag for AEW. Even if there is a little bias there, he's not going to uncritically publish anything they tell him.

2. AEW wanted to work Meltzer. First, the booking story makes them come off worse than the visa story. Also, if you're Tony Khan, why would you risk losing trust over an issue that isn't that important in the big picture? If Meltzer looks into this and finds out that you're full of it, he's not going to believe a word you say in the future. Save your lies principle.

And then there is the timing where PAC comes to AEW right after he loses the Dream Gate title.

It's not like I have a good explanation why he hasn't worked U.S. indies though. If I were to try ... if he was a money-driven person he would have stayed in WWE so we don't know what his primary motivations are. Maybe rebuilding the BritWres scene is a big goal of his? Maybe he hates long travel and will only do it for love of his life Dragon Gate or for AEW money?

Dave has referred to unspecified other issues on the Board - "There were a few other issues, none that anyone speculated on and none I can say about on the record unless it gets out elsewhere, but yeah, once they had a date for him losing the title they were in talks."

It'll be interesting to see if PAC starts doing U.S. indies now.

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by suplexberry » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:00 am

"PAC is from" discussion made me chuckle. I'm sure to some British listeners that was like saying "Punk is from Pittsburgh.. No, Baltimore? No, he's definitely from Charlotte." But I don't blame you guys.

I think there is a level of defensiveness in some Impact fans that is understandable and other times a level where they really should calm themselves and take a look at things from an outsider's perspective. The segment perhaps was excessive but it spoke to a point that I think is very relevant: the lessened importance and impact (ha!) of the product is a real existential threat to the promotion as a whole. It's okay to be a small indy that is not widely discussed but the promotion has not been that, its been usually considered somewhat of a big player during its history. Does it make sense for the company to run as a small indy nobody talks about?

It sucks that the product gets praise and may be able to turn viewers into new fans and is widely available online but this also coincides with such a poor time for it in terms of popularity. There's failing upward but can you succeed downward? I don't know.

I am honestly kind of curious to see what NXT turns into during this new period. A lot of people are worried and for good reason but in a way the competition means maybe some new, truly interesting things will happen. Like I remember when I watched NXT regularly I wanted matches between these guys and some good, main roster people. Just random singles matches like they used to do, the type that gave us Cesaro vs Zayn trilogy.

With that said, I suspect it just becomes a third brand show that is virtually indistinguishable from the other brands.

Also cannot believe how many people parroted the "NXT was on Wednesday first" line on wreddit. Serves me right for reading wreddit I guess.

MOX missing All Out is a bummer because I thought the feud was nicely built and not just a dream match anymore. Omega vs PAC will be a great match but it sucks it doesn't get a huge build thanks to this. I hope PAC wins. Omega can continue this story of not winning and thinking he should be, and we can see his eventual big win be a good moment.

I am disappointed in no XFL team name analysis, but a Shake Them Ropes covered those, too.

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by Ewan » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:34 pm

Well not to labour the point, It's probably important to point out that Impact youtube numbers do around 50-150k a video, which is pretty decent for a wrestling company (just look at ROH's numbers which are 2-25k roughly. Yes It's not translating into a lot of money, but It does point to their continued relevancy in some places and like I said, it's not that no one is talking about them, they are still talked about plenty on wreddit (although that means having to go to wreddit and put up with their markyness) and other sites I go on. Also, it's not for nothing that people are buzzing about LAX going to AEW. Impact aren't a top company anymore and I don't think anyone is claiming that, but they are proving themselves a place where relative unknowns can go to get seasoned and build up a portfolio (and have the freedom to develop both in and out the ring that wwe with their scripted promos, don't really provide) Anyway, I hope I the future we get more content on the podcast about the smaller companies like Impact and the certain fans on twitter can be ignored. the last thing we need to is to let those people frame the conversation.

Which sort of raises the point of why people think the NXT going on tv thing is going to be a big deal creatively. NXT hasn't been a development brand for a long time, it's been a quarantine zone between the main roster (which despite what people will claim in interviews is where everyone wants to go when they sign to WWE) and other promotions. It's going to be more of the same, just with two hours, and I get the feeling the ratings are going to be very low.

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:29 pm

Our show is always going to contain a little bit of bear poking and some outright zaniness. When the DPW loons invaded our Twitter mentions, my first instinct was to turn it into a bit for the show. The idea of a VOW vs Impact business comparison is just the kind of absurdity that makes what we do a little different than everyone else.

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by supersonic » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:36 pm

Skip the first 44:30 to avoid the LOLTNA portion

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:08 pm

Listening a little further, and a few miscellaneous notes:
- one smaller point not really mentioned in all of the Impact talk was that you arbitrarily numbered Impact as the 19th-most relevant promotion out there, in jest of course...but, I legitimately think it would make for a fun thought experiment to rank promotions by relevance, really thinking about the list, and see if Impact would actually fall on or near that number (19th is generally a weird number for anything to fall on because of its prime-number-nicety). I would probably craft my personal version of that list myself...if I watched enough prowres these days to trust anything I say out out of my own mouth on the matter.
- briefly mentioned PAC's Dream Gate opponents, but forgot about poor Shun Skywalker...if they could reach you, I'm sure Michael, Case, and John would briefly pummel you for that
- Rich, it's pronounced KOO-BOW-TA. Kubota.
- "...because otherwise this show would run nine hours [next week]"...you guys are...still saying that like...it's a bad thing. I pay you $30 each to do just that next time. Deal?

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Joe Lanza
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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:59 pm

If I were to rank out the US/Canada promotions based strictly on business, i'd have WWE, AEW, ROH, NJPW ahead of Impact for sure. Those are easy and i'd think most everyone would agree.

If you factor in relevance/buzz etc, GCW is ahead of them. We could debate MLW, EVOLVE, maybe a couple of others. GCW draws better crowds, but no TV (despite how meaningless the Pursuit exposure is, it's something), no streaming service, etc. Impact tops out on paid audience (for PPV) higher than MLW or EVOLVE, but both of those places do fill the buildings they run these days. I'd say EVOLVE is more relevant to the overall scene, as the primary WWE feeder, the WWE connection, etc. But I wouldnt die on that hill.

Combine it all, and you really cant realistically slot Impact any lower than 8th, and they'd come in higher than that with me. They'd be nowhere close to 19th.

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Re: VOW Flagship: VOW vs Impact, Wednesday Night Wars, Bouncin' x2

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:13 am

That would be the beauty of the experiment: we stick Stateside and naturally, they're nowhere near that mark, that much is true. BUT, at least in my case, I absolutely would make this a worldwide/global discussion. At that point, how crazy do you get with it? STARDOM above them? CMLL, maybe? Are BJW or AJPW comparable? They are above SMASH or WXW, but is it a large/small gap at this point? You stick Stateside and it's already a lengthy discussion that you could make a podcast episode on in and of itself (I don't even watch Impact and could still talk with anyone about it for a couple of hours, at least)--you extend this to the global scale, and it becomes a rabbit-hole-level dialogue and basically something the Psychology is Dead guys would do.

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