VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:07 pm

Note: ~20 minutes of discussion about Shibata's angle and all-time great heel turns (1:50:07) is missing from the file. Our recorder without reason stopped working thus eliminating far and away the best 20 minutes in this show's history.


This week on the Voices of Wrestling Flagship podcast Joe and Rich discuss the NJPW G1 Climax 29 Finals, Jay White's rise to superstardom, Kota Ibushi's moment in the sun, the incredible KENTA heel turn and speculate on the return of Katsuyori Shibata. Additional topics include a brief look at the upcoming Super J-Cup and a review of WWE SummerSlam 2019.

Since we ran long, our review of NXT TakeOver Toronto II, as well as a discussion on what we feel is wrong with NXT at the moment, can be found on The Overrun at http://VoicesofWrestling.com/Patreon ($2).



MP3: https://audioboom.com/posts/7343287-vow ... review.mp3

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Ckkj14 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:02 pm

Joe. I love you man but this ECW project is absolutely insane! God bless you. Why this is the best wrestling site going

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Joe Lanza » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:27 pm

Everyone is saying, "Joe, this will take years to finish", to which I say, ok, where am I going? I'm not concerned with how long it takes. The shows will be evergreen, and I'm not going anywhere.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Murcatto » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:20 pm

I've been reading some of the archived Observers from the early 2000s and according to Dave Kashin's win over Ryan Gracie pretty much saved his wrestling career. When he got destroyed by Gracie in the first match he was dead in the water in NJPW because the fans stopped believing in his shooter gimmick. Evidently Inoki wasn't impressed either because Kashin was getting completely buried. If he'd lost the rematch to Gracie he was probably done at a major league level because he had no credibility with the audience. Apparently when he won the rematch all was forgiven, because the fans bought his submissions again and Inoki had him win the junior title immediately in like a two minute match. It didn't seem to matter that the Gracie win didn't come in the most impressive manner.

That appears to be a theme though, if a wrestler lost in PRIDE they could wind up being more over with wrestling fans (and more importantly with Inoki) if they performed well, but if they won in PRIDE it didn't really seem to matter how they won - they were more over even if they won with a shitty performance. Yasuda initially got over after winning a decision over Satake in a fight where his strategy was to repeatedly drive Satake (who was like 70 pounds lighter) into the corner and just hold him there until the ref called a break. Absolutely terrible fight but his win was such a big upset that the fans treated him like a bigger star coming off the match. Kaz Fujita got over as a shooter because Mark Kerr and Ken Shamrock both completely gassed out after giving him a beating and he somehow wound up with wins over these two big MMA stars. Wikipedia's description of the Shamrock fight - "Fujita took another incredible beating yet was not knocked out, and Shamrock then began to experience heart attack symptoms and had his corner throw in the towel." As long as you got your hand raised you were golden basically.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by EvandroFurtado » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:28 am

First of all, guys, thank you for saying it. This Buddy Murphy thing is completely insane. They will not create stars if they keep jobbing them.

Another thing: can we all agree that Becky is not that big of a star? Tessa is doing a MUCH better job at being "The Man" than Becky ever did.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:33 am

Murcatto wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:20 pm
I've been reading some of the archived Observers from the early 2000s and according to Dave Kashin's win over Ryan Gracie pretty much saved his wrestling career. When he got destroyed by Gracie in the first match he was dead in the water in NJPW because the fans stopped believing in his shooter gimmick. Evidently Inoki wasn't impressed either because Kashin was getting completely buried. If he'd lost the rematch to Gracie he was probably done at a major league level because he had no credibility with the audience. Apparently when he won the rematch all was forgiven, because the fans bought his submissions again and Inoki had him win the junior title immediately in like a two minute match. It didn't seem to matter that the Gracie win didn't come in the most impressive manner.

That appears to be a theme though, if a wrestler lost in PRIDE they could wind up being more over with wrestling fans (and more importantly with Inoki) if they performed well, but if they won in PRIDE it didn't really seem to matter how they won - they were more over even if they won with a shitty performance. Yasuda initially got over after winning a decision over Satake in a fight where his strategy was to repeatedly drive Satake (who was like 70 pounds lighter) into the corner and just hold him there until the ref called a break. Absolutely terrible fight but his win was such a big upset that the fans treated him like a bigger star coming off the match. Kaz Fujita got over as a shooter because Mark Kerr and Ken Shamrock both completely gassed out after giving him a beating and he somehow wound up with wins over these two big MMA stars. Wikipedia's description of the Shamrock fight - "Fujita took another incredible beating yet was not knocked out, and Shamrock then began to experience heart attack symptoms and had his corner throw in the towel." As long as you got your hand raised you were golden basically.
Yeah, the strategy seemed to be, book them in fights, pray they win, and push the fuck out of the fact they won.

And they dont call him "Iron Head" for nothing.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by supersonic » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:40 am

I'll predict that KENTA and Shibata will be this generation's Punk and Steamboat, leading to a "final confrontation" at the Dome.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:47 am

The Naito thing feels like another example of people approaching booking from different angles. I think NJPW business will pretty much keep booming no matter what, but I think the Naito story has just been a major fumble from a storytelling quality perspective. It’s like if Thanos just killed all the heroes in Infinity War but then Endgame just never came out.

I actually agree that they will do Naito/Okada again but I just think it will feel too late and the result won’t feel as satisfying. The ship has sailed. As a Naito fan (less emotionally invested and more just I think he’s by far the best in ring worker in the company so I want him doing more main event matches) honestly I don’t care enough anymore. It’ll be cool when he wins but I’ll never be as invested as I was in 2016/2017.

Jay White isn’t a bad wrestler, he’s just an average wrestler. Wouldn’t be a top 100 guy in the world in terms of ring work. Not a chance. I think his babyface run will improve a bit because he did show flashes on excursion. But I mean he just had a G1 run with flop after flop, and his big nuclear heat really only caught fire because he beat down two of the most beloved wrestlers in the company. He gets heat and it helps drama, you’re totally right. But I think the booking is more to credit for that than Jay White’s work. Could Taichi not get that heat? Could Archer not? I don’t think his story really should be to HIS credit as a wrestler when he has repeatedly failed to get heat in some big spots/matches.

I can’t blame NJPW for hitching their wagons to the young and fresh guy at all though

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:24 am

White has been booked extremely well, no doubt about it.

One thing with Archer. He's almost too much of a badass. He's getting cheered a ton, and even loud chants vs big babyfaces.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Ckkj14 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:27 am

Whites in ring stuff is seriously under rated. When he goes he can put on some amazing matches.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Ckkj14 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:10 pm

Honestly think if I had to do my top 10 matches of the year right now White would be in 3 of them.

v Ibushi
v Okada (WrestleKingdom)
v Tanahashi (Title win)

I enjoy his style a lot

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:01 pm

Murcatto wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:20 pm
I've been reading some of the archived Observers from the early 2000s and according to Dave Kashin's win over Ryan Gracie pretty much saved his wrestling career. When he got destroyed by Gracie in the first match he was dead in the water in NJPW because the fans stopped believing in his shooter gimmick. Evidently Inoki wasn't impressed either because Kashin was getting completely buried. If he'd lost the rematch to Gracie he was probably done at a major league level because he had no credibility with the audience. Apparently when he won the rematch all was forgiven, because the fans bought his submissions again and Inoki had him win the junior title immediately in like a two minute match. It didn't seem to matter that the Gracie win didn't come in the most impressive manner.
I found the same in my research. He WON and they couldn't take that away from him so instead of saying he won because the guy kicking his ass blew his knee out in the midst of kicking his ass they just said he beat a Gracie by TKO and the rest was history. It's a bold strategy and I absolutely get it. Like Joe said the post below you the entire goal was hope & pray guys win and then run with them.

Kashin was completely and totally fine for his time. He's not even an actively BAD wrestler but holy fuck was he overpushed and one of the many, many examples of Inoki losing touch with the wrestling world changing around him.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:02 pm

armsofsleep wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:47 am
But I think the booking is more to credit for that than Jay White’s work. Could Taichi not get that heat? Could Archer not? I don’t think his story really should be to HIS credit as a wrestler when he has repeatedly failed to get heat in some big spots/matches.
Those guys ARE heels and get a lot of cheers. Jay White gets nothing but unadulterated hatred from fans. That answers your question right there.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Ckkj14 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:06 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:27 pm
Everyone is saying, "Joe, this will take years to finish", to which I say, ok, where am I going? I'm not concerned with how long it takes. The shows will be evergreen, and I'm not going anywhere.
I love it.

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Re: VOW Flagship: G1 Finals, KENTA/Shibata & WWE SummerSlam Review

Post by Danwaka » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:22 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:01 pm
► Show Spoiler
I found the same in my research. He WON and they couldn't take that away from him so instead of saying he won because the guy kicking his ass blew his knee out in the midst of kicking his ass they just said he beat a Gracie by TKO and the rest was history. It's a bold strategy and I absolutely get it. Like Joe said the post below you the entire goal was hope & pray guys win and then run with them.

Kashin was completely and totally fine for his time. He's not even an actively BAD wrestler but holy fuck was he overpushed and one of the many, many examples of Inoki losing touch with the wrestling world changing around him.
I mean, by the standards of Kazuyuki Fujita Kendo Kashin did nothing wrong. He took everything the opponent had (fighting spirit) and outlasted him.

It's just that you know... he could only do that one time before he had no fighting spirit left! :lol:

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