VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Talk about shows from the Voices of Wrestling podcast network and argue with us here.
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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:16 am

Topics on this week's Voices of Wrestling Flagship podcast include AEW, Jay White, Dragon Gate & the PAC/Kzy MOTY contender, NOAH & Kiyomiya, EVOLVE, Elimination Chamber and much more.

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MP3: https://audioboom.com/posts/7176662-vow ... e-more.mp3

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Ckkj14 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:01 am

He's probably had a load tell him already but PAC v Ospreay didn't end in DQ it was a time limit draw. Feedback I've seen has been a lot more positive than Joe mentioned although a finish like that will always be diverse.

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Leo C » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:44 pm

Has NJPW officially announced that Ibushi is signed? In his promo he just said he was sticking around, not necessarily that he had a full time contract or anything. He's still listed the same way he was before in the website. I figure they would do an official announcement or something. I don't know.

Totally agree on Kiyomiya. He just comes off as a wide-eyed 22 year old; because right now that's pretty much what he is.

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Goat » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:11 pm

Were people saying it was medium effort PAC in the match vs Ospreay because I just watched it and the match ruled?

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by mlev76 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:28 pm

The commentary on AEW has reached absurd levels and unfortunately, I don't thinks Joe's comments helped. I'm not going to sit here and say there's no anti-AEW folks out there, but some of those being lumped into this group are just asking certain questions and not necessarily getting any answers but "that's ridiculous" or "nothing there" in response.

The issues with Dave are largely of his own creation. It's clear he has a very pro-Omega/Bucks bias, so much so that some have noted he's now actively speaking worse of New Japan now that they're gone. To top that, his claims about the website selling AEW tickets and trying to say they do the same for WWE and UFC are disengenous at best. Others have noted this isn't true and Dave also doesn't appear on those companies' affiliated events.

The same goes for the game Conrad is playing with Starrcast and pretending he and they have nothing to do with AEW. Nothing except running two conventions in conjunction with those events, heavily featuring their talent, using the AEW logo on the Starrcast II banner and Conrad hosting the ticket announcement rally. "Tony's just my friend" said with a southern drawl might convince some, but it's clear there's more there than he's letting on.

I hope AEW succeeds for the very reasons you said-it will make WWE and wrestling as a whole better. But, I think asking questions shouldn't make one anti-AEW or a conspiracy theorist like some have claimed.

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by SuperplexlariatBW » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:47 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:28 pm
The commentary on AEW has reached absurd levels and unfortunately, I don't thinks Joe's comments helped. I'm not going to sit here and say there's no anti-AEW folks out there, but some of those being lumped into this group are just asking certain questions and not necessarily getting any answers but "that's ridiculous" or "nothing there" in response.

The issues with Dave are largely of his own creation. It's clear he has a very pro-Omega/Bucks bias, so much so that some have noted he's now actively speaking worse of New Japan now that they're gone. To top that, his claims about the website selling AEW tickets and trying to say they do the same for WWE and UFC are disengenous at best. Others have noted this isn't true and Dave also doesn't appear on those companies' affiliated events.

The same goes for the game Conrad is playing with Starrcast and pretending he and they have nothing to do with AEW. Nothing except running two conventions in conjunction with those events, heavily featuring their talent, using the AEW logo on the Starrcast II banner and Conrad hosting the ticket announcement rally. "Tony's just my friend" said with a southern drawl might convince some, but it's clear there's more there than he's letting on.

I hope AEW succeeds for the very reasons you said-it will make WWE and wrestling as a whole better. But, I think asking questions shouldn't make one anti-AEW or a conspiracy theorist like some have claimed.
Exactly. There's so many things that go into this and the Dave criticism. In addition to how he seems to be speaking of New Japan he's brought up how ROH feels like a cold product. People have been bringing up issues with ROH's booking and backstage for like 3 years and he wouldn't say anything. Now all of a sudden we're hearing this critiquing.

Then there are things about AEW that he clearly knows, but doesn't want to say until they want it out there. Like he's hyping AEW are talking with 2 TV networks that would bring more prestige than any TV deal since WCW. So if he knows this much then why can't name the networks like he would for other wrestling or MMA promotions when they're in TV negotiations? So people on twitter can say they're likely going to the Turner networks, but he can't?

There are stories that Satin or others break and then Dave will report afterwards talking like these stories were not secrets at all. So if he knew all along then why didn't he break the story first?

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Danwaka » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:39 pm

Mhm. I used to poo-poo accusations of bias thrown at Meltzer from the likes of Bischoff and Prichard, but it got increasingly clear over the last year and a half regarding NJPW and ROH just where his horse was stabled. There's something to be said to how he's conducted his coverage of AEW and the Elite. And it's definitely not his only poker in the fire. You can see how he approaches WWE stuff that involves Charlotte.

Edit: They've not yet even had a show run or a television deal announced, Dave.


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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:36 pm

I just don’t buy White losing the title in MSG. That would be two back to back zero successful defense title reigns which NJPW hasn’t done in how long? I just don’t think it’s as simple as sliding White in for Omega’s booking spot( also this booking is all according to Omega which could have a couple of different motivations). If you are gonna push White than you are going to push him and see what you got imo.

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Danwaka » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:59 pm

Bloodbuzz Bunk wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:36 pm
I just don’t buy White losing the title in MSG. That would be two back to back zero successful defense title reigns which NJPW hasn’t done in how long? I just don’t think it’s as simple as sliding White in for Omega’s booking spot( also this booking is all according to Omega which could have a couple of different motivations). If you are gonna push White than you are going to push him and see what you got imo.
Discounting injuries? 2002 to 2003 would be the last time.

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by suplexberry » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:08 am

I automatically grimaced, hearing the phrase "performatively woke" because at first glance it struck as dismissive of any effort to genuinely include diverse representation as mere performance of progressiveness. But once Joe explained his point of view, I kind of agreed with it. There is a real risk of talking a big game and then falling short, as opposed to just featuring talent and letting the chips fall where they may. This also, to an extent, happened with PROGRESS when they brought in women. They did a lot of patting themselves on the back yet I remember having a fair bit of issues with the women's booking and presentation (and of course they let an abuser in their locker room which ran off one of their top women altogether). Self-congratulations are rarely earned.

To be fair, they didn't mention Nyla Rose being trans when they initially introduced her at the press conference, so I don't think they made that big of a deal about it.

Honestly, at a time when my interest in wrestling is waning, AEW is keeping me on the hook about news and goings on even if I'm only half-watching even some of my fave promotions. It's an exciting time.

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Ckkj14 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:21 am

suplexberry wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:08 am
I automatically grimaced, hearing the phrase "performatively woke" because at first glance it struck as dismissive of any effort to genuinely include diverse representation as mere performance of progressiveness. But once Joe explained his point of view, I kind of agreed with it. There is a real risk of talking a big game and then falling short, as opposed to just featuring talent and letting the chips fall where they may. This also, to an extent, happened with PROGRESS when they brought in women. They did a lot of patting themselves on the back yet I remember having a fair bit of issues with the women's booking and presentation (and of course they let an abuser in their locker room which ran off one of their top women altogether). Self-congratulations are rarely earned.

To be fair, they didn't mention Nyla Rose being trans when they initially introduced her at the press conference, so I don't think they made that big of a deal about it.

Honestly, at a time when my interest in wrestling is waning, AEW is keeping me on the hook about news and goings on even if I'm only half-watching even some of my fave promotions. It's an exciting time.

Its a fine lie isn't it. Like I had no idea about people like Nyla Rose before AEW and you want to tell these people stories and their background as that can help talent get over.

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by SuperplexlariatBW » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:27 pm

The reason for AEW hate and how certain wrestling media people are pushing them is real simple. It has to do with the mentality people have towards the media. A lot of people in this world despise media bias and they will resent anybody or anything who happens to be the golden boy of the media. This isn't just a pro wrestling thing. People just don't like media favorites.

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Angry216 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:05 am

For what it's worth Joe, Eita is the leader of R.E.D. Funny enough at the last Korakuen when the For Way Tag Team Tag Match ad he chose not to include Big R and Ben-K on the team and Big R asked him why. Eita basically told him that he was the leader of R.E.D, not him. Which is kinda funny since he put Big R in his place (everyone on the roster does because Big R carries himself like a goof) but yeah he has the asshole persona down. For a brief moment last year, he was definitely trying to replicate Shingo's brutality and love for plunder but it never fit him. Since losing his hair, the character work has clicked for me so that's cool.

Switching to NJPW, Ibushi signing a two year contract with NJPW has me really excited to see what they'll do with him. Gotta imagine he'll see Ospreay again and the rematch will have a lot of time unlike the WK match. Then you have all the possibiltes with everyone at the top of the card. He's the one that I'm really curious to see what direction they take him.

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Re: VOW Flagship: AEW, Jay White, PAC vs. Kzy, EVOLVE & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:57 am

A couple of things.

I was literally recording my segment as the PAC vs Ospreay match was happening, glanced at twitter, and saw people talking about the nut shot and complaining about the finish so I assumed it was a DQ. So my bad on that. Also I will place all blame on Rob Reid of BritWres Roundtable for the "medium effort PAC" thing because he didn't like the match or PAC's performance and that's how he described it in the VOW Slack moments after the match ended. At any rate, i'm sure Rich & I will talk about that match this week.

I hated the AEW part of the segment in real time as I felt like I wasn't coming across with my words the way my brain was intending, but when I listened back it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. The problem with telling the world how woke/progressive you are going to be, is that you are setting yourself up for bad faith critique from all sides and you can not win. There will be assholes claiming you are doing it for clout or being performative (whether true or not doesn't really matter), which we are seeing already with people unfairly critiquing the Sonny Kiss & Nyla Rose signings as tokens, and there will be people on the other side who will then hold you to totally unreasonable standards ("You claimed to be an ally, BUT..."), which we saw this week with the YouTube/Twitter comment stuff (which is totally out of their control, and everything Cody said in response was scrutinized to an insane degree and examined in bad faith in some cases). To some it will just induces eyerolls and make them wonder whether it's genuine or a marketing angle. At the end of the day it's an unwinnable game. suplexberry brought up PROGRESS, and that's exactly what i'm talking about. PROGRESS would've saved themselves roughly a million headaches had they not carried on about how inclusive they were, because then every perceived misstep along the way not only comes off like a betrayal. In fairness, the second AEW rally was way lighter on the LOOK HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE stuff. As noted, Kiss & Rose were simply introduced, without asking for backpats or stressing that they were LGBTQ+.

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