VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

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Joe Lanza
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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:34 am

armsofsleep wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:30 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:25 pm
armsofsleep wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:17 pm
Ibushi and Ospreay........ two guys who would be in the top 5 of any credible wrestler of the year poll




what?

Now, besides not really viewing either guys as top 5 locks (I don't think either would make my top 20), what makes Ibushi a super mega lock? Atleast Ospreay I can get it if you like his UK stuff and really factor in drawing power a lot. I mean, even among NJPW super fans, Ibushi would have to be behind Omega, Tanahashi, Okada, and Ospreay right? And that's if you really really love his in-ring resume, because he hasn't even held a title this year, so his drawing power isn't exactly something to hang your hat on.
Ibushi had a phenomenal in ring year. I'm not sure what "WOTY" poll the guys were referring to, but by in ring alone,I'd have both guys in my top five with Omega, Riddle and Walter.
In-ring, Riddle is sort of disqualified for me after having one meaningful match over the last four months of the year. I've liked a lot of Ibushi's stuff (the Naito match being his only real MOTYC but I think the Ishii G1 match was also stellar). I just figured his in-ring resume was a little more divisive then "every credible top 5 list will have him on there".

And all of this is basically with the qualification that you basically have to be obsessed with NJPW to even think like that. I mean, Takeda has a better in-ring resume than anyone in NJPW, super easily, and he headlined for multiple companies. Same for Ishikawa. And even if you count business, AJPW's business is probably strong enough to atleast seriously consider Zeus and Miyahara, who had a match together that is probably better than any match produced by NJPW all year.

It's obviously all up to opinion, but it's why I don't really like the idea of "any credible person will include these two guys" type of grand proclamation.
I appreciate your Takeda enthusiasm, but while I've loved two of his matches and really liked one or two others, his resume isn't nearly as deep as the top line NJPW players so I think "super easily" is kind of pushing it. I'll have him in the second half of my in ring top ten I think.

I have no idea which Zeus/Miyahara match you are talking about, definitely not the first one. The second one was very good, but jeez, I'd have it behind at least a half dozen NJPW bouts I think off the top of my head (conservatively). Also AJPW has flatlined, it hasn't been a good year for them at all, even Akiyama made mention of needing to bounce back, the Zeus thing didn't even spark Osaka above usual levels.

I think Ishikawa has had a down year by his standards and he wont sniff any of my lists.

This exemplifies variance in opinion, but again, this was all started by a flippant comment not meant to be declarative that while sure, it could be countered, at the same time I don't think it was wildly controversial. I didn't say Juice & Cody, ffs.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:38 am

armsofsleep wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:49 pm
mlev76 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:47 pm
Hey,I get not liking the hyperbole. But, I would say that I'm not what you'd call an obsessive NJPW fan and that's my perspective in spite of that. But, of course, your mileage may always vary from anyone on who and who isn't the best at anything.
It's why it's hard to do "worldwide" best of lists in general. Like, not being invested in the NJPW product at all makes it really hard for me to really ride hard for WOTY candidates from the company.


Also, re: KUSHIDA not being a credible heavyweight............






Atleast KUSHIDA has a good believable offense lmao.
Will Ospreay is 6'0"+, a worldwide star, a top guy everywhere he works, and doesnt look out of place at all when working with NJPW heavies (or really anyone).

KUSHIDA, who I like a lot, is 5 foot nothing, weighs 170 lbs, looks TINY in with NJPW heavies.

KUSHIDA is a nice junior, a junior ace in a big time company.

Will Ospreay is a top line player.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:00 am

Anyway, I talk for a minimum of 6 hours per week, not everything I say is gong to be the right combination of words for the point im trying to get across. More accurately it wouldve been "Two guys who will be in the Top 5 of a lot of WOTY lists".

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Tim_dawg » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:20 am

I have a young guy vs star match where the young guy wins: Shelton Benjamin vs HHH. Shelton is a heel at the beginning of the night, gets drafted to RAW, and beats HHH by role up. It was a banana peel win, but I remember I jumped up and screamed when it happened. It really lead to nothing, but it's a moment I will never forget.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:14 am

Tim_dawg wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:20 am
I have a young guy vs star match where the young guy wins: Shelton Benjamin vs HHH. Shelton is a heel at the beginning of the night, gets drafted to RAW, and beats HHH by role up. It was a banana peel win, but I remember I jumped up and screamed when it happened. It really lead to nothing, but it's a moment I will never forget.
Well it was essentially the foundation of a hot 18 month mid card run for Shelton which he has coasted off of for about 80% of his career. So while you are 100% right it really lead to nowhere, it sorta made a guy for life.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Tim_dawg » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:16 am

Bloodbuzz Bunk wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:14 am
Tim_dawg wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:20 am
I have a young guy vs star match where the young guy wins: Shelton Benjamin vs HHH. Shelton is a heel at the beginning of the night, gets drafted to RAW, and beats HHH by role up. It was a banana peel win, but I remember I jumped up and screamed when it happened. It really lead to nothing, but it's a moment I will never forget.
Well it was essentially the foundation of a hot 18 month mid card run for Shelton which he has coasted off of for about 80% of his career. So while you are 100% right it really lead to nowhere, it sorta made a guy for life.
That's a good point, I was thinking it didn't make him a main eventer. But yeah, it did kinda get him to a certain point and stay there.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by rollup » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:36 am

Suguira is a great candidate , it looked like a bad business decision when he won the GHC title , but he has knocked it out of the park for rest the year ...

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by armsofsleep » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:00 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:00 am
Anyway, I talk for a minimum of 6 hours per week, not everything I say is gong to be the right combination of words for the point im trying to get across. More accurately it wouldve been "Two guys who will be in the Top 5 of a lot of WOTY lists".
Don’t worry haha, it wasn’t intended as a Gotcha or anything, just something I was questioning.

Shame you didn’t love Miyahara/Zeus 2. I think it’s like a perfect wrestling match. I think it’s helped a lot by the build, which I was super invested in. Plus the crowd being pretty hot for it. Great production too. One thing I love about AJPW main events is that they tend to stick closer to the 20 minute mark, so a 30+ minute match feels truly epic. I really disliked when like, every Okada match, even against lower on the totem pole guys, needed to go 40 minutes. It made the defenses feel same-y.

I think you’re underrating Takeda too. Some of the less hyped matches (like the Tsukamoto match or a lot of his FREEDOMS stuff) is stellar, and he even had great stuff in DDT. Highly recommend the four way falls count anywhere match he did on Maji Manji.

Ishikawa I can understand being down on (his resume isn’t as good as it was in 2015/2016) and he is very very hurt right now, so much so that he can barely use one of his arms. But I still give him credit on being a great main event singles guy and great in tags throughout multiple companies.

I think the problem with a lot of puro WOTY candidates is that their best stuff can be buried in undercard tags that many puro fans are basically trained to skip. Like the best Hideki Suzuki match all year was his match teaming up with Sekimoto against Abe and Takuya Nomura. That might be my tag match of the year actually.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:39 am

BlizzardAcolyte wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:24 pm
Jeff Hawkins wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 pm
I'm talking once every 5 years with a kid you think might be "the guy."
Interesting, this implies that you think you average promotion stumbles across a guy with bonafide potential, on average, every five years. You just spitballing numbers, or how did you come to that figure?
It's pro wrestling, if you don't have a guy you can try and make one. That's why it's fake. WWE's big problem is they've limited the recipe to a few ingredients.

But mostly thinking Cornette's "Generation of wrestling fans last around 6 or 7 years" and settled on 5.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:15 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:40 pm
Where do we fall on RUTHLESS AGGRESSION Cena vs Kurt Angle in this category of matches?
at the time Angle rarely lost. Part of the problem with this kind of match is the champ wrestles all the time, and every month on ppv, etc.

Like if you had Brock come back, issue an open non-title challenge, and if Velveteen Dream or Montez Ford came out and beat him with a non interference/distraction finish, he's made as long as Brock doesn't get his win back and especially not the next week. Winner shouldn't lose for at least 2 months after that and you don't mention a "streak." Just treat him like a winner and a big deal instead of spouting hooks and catchphrases and doing stupid comedy.

They know how to do this shit, some of the best promos delivered are "website only" or were on Talking Smack. They don't realize their job is for the system to then allow them to make themselves and they're too busy looking for a guy who is made to then make the system.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:20 am

RE: "Rousey is starting to feel ordinary to us"

Question: if neither of you watches the main roster TV, and you limit your viewing of her to the PPVs, and you're only semi-following the results & news of WWE at this point, how is it possible that she's eroding to this state in your eyes?

I felt bad for you guys listening to this, in retrospect: U.S. and Japan are/were chock-full of good stuff happening this weekend--if I'm reading Luchablog right, Mexico also has its usual contingent of spot shows this weekend--and it's entirely possible that you guys won't remember any of it by next month--at least fondly--because TLC is gonna end up being the lasting memory you have of this weekend. It's like going to the market and having a bunch of different cereals to choose from...but no, because the doctor says you need to watch your heart, you're stuck buying fucking Wheaties.

On the plus side, with that sour taste in your mouths, you'll be spitting all kinds of venom next week, won't need any listener questions, and will be able to have your souls cleansed just in time for TOSHIKOSHI PRO-WRESTLING 2018.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by suplexberry » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:59 am

Goddamn, that ROH discussion was so on point.

They had such a good shot in 2015-2016. No doubt some guys would've ended up signing no matter what they did, but they were in a unique position to look for the next crop once Steen, Gargano, Strong, Styles etc were all known to leave eventually (I mean you could read that in the tea leaves because WWE started signing everybody in like 2014). They were in a unique position to scout talent and they just ..decided to keep cashing 500 dollar seminar checks instead and not even feature some of those guys.

I feel like if/when the current ROH folds or goes under, we're gonna get a series of "what went wrong" podcasts from guys inside the scene, who finally feel like they can open up about the issues. Some of that stuff we already know and can analyze from just looking at what's been done but it's still going to be fascinating to hear about it from roster members and such. Might be a big boom for Art of Wrestling. (thinking emoji)

About WOTY, huge fan of Ibushi and Will both - will be my most anticipated match of the WK card. I feel like Ibushi hasn't had the biggest of opportunities to shine; he's had spots but the Golden Lovers story has been the primary focus of his 2018, at least until the G1 final. Will was on fire early in the year, and I absolutely loved his run throughout. KUSHIDA vs Will in May was my favorite match of the year.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Frank Olson » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:02 am

In regards to KUSHIDA as a heavyweight, I can say that I once saw an ROH/New Japan show in Chicago and I walked past KUSHIDA as he was signing autographs, and I am definitely bigger than him despite me only being about 5'9'' and 150 lbs (he's definitely in better shape though...). So yeah, while he's one of my very favorite wrestlers and I'd love to see him have a lengthy singles match against an Okada or a Naito, he definitely isn't someone I could see as a believable full-time heavyweight.

I really think that SHO is being groomed to be the next KUSHIDA. During SHO's run in Best of the Super Juniors I kept thinking that if KUSHIDA were ever to leave the company that SHO seemed like he was already ready to fill that void. Like KUSHIDA, SHO is a fast-paced technical wrestler who can also sprinkle in power wrestling and high flying spots, and he has a similar babyface charisma. And then you've got Young Lion Ren Narita who feels like he could also fill that role a few years down the line if SHO ever moves up to heavyweight or whatever. So while on the one hand I'd sort of hate to see KUSHIDA go, I also don't think that New Japan would really miss him all that much at this point if he does wind up going to WWE.

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