VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Talk about shows from the Voices of Wrestling podcast network and argue with us here.
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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:40 pm

Support our sponsor GRAPPL. Download the GRAPPL app today on App Store and Google Play and start rating matches both past & present!

This week on the Voices of Wrestling Flagship podcast Joe and Rich do an early preview of NJPW's Wrestle Kingdom 13 card, discuss the upcoming Road to Tokyo Dome shows and put a bow on the World Tag League. 

Additional topics include Mustafa Ali vs. Daniel Bryan, Tyler Breeze's NXT return, WWE Tables, Ladders, Chairs & Stairs as well as a preview of ROH Final Battle and big picture thoughts on ROH post-Elite. 



MP3: https://audioboom.com/posts/7117432-vow ... we-tlc.mp3

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by EvandroFurtado » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:03 pm

I just wanted to say that this had the best ending ever!

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Jeff Hawkins » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 pm

Disagree with Lanza on "the babyface should never win" the young guy vs. top heel match. It made Barry Windham in 84 to get the sunset flip win on Harley Race when Dusty played the footage on tv. That and the sweet Camaro he got as a signing bonus (symbolized by car key, natch).

I think in this day and age you need that occasional win and let it breathe (i.e don't 50/50 that shit). I'm talking once every 5 years with a kid you think might be "the guy." With WWE's method of conditioning, you need to wake people occasionally vs. the pattern. If you lose, you're a geek. If you're small, you're a geek etc

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:24 pm

Jeff Hawkins wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 pm
I'm talking once every 5 years with a kid you think might be "the guy."
Interesting, this implies that you think you average promotion stumbles across a guy with bonafide potential, on average, every five years. You just spitballing numbers, or how did you come to that figure?

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Joe Lanza
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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:40 pm

Jeff Hawkins wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 pm
Disagree with Lanza on "the babyface should never win" the young guy vs. top heel match. It made Barry Windham in 84 to get the sunset flip win on Harley Race when Dusty played the footage on tv. That and the sweet Camaro he got as a signing bonus (symbolized by car key, natch).

I think in this day and age you need that occasional win and let it breathe (i.e don't 50/50 that shit). I'm talking once every 5 years with a kid you think might be "the guy." With WWE's method of conditioning, you need to wake people occasionally vs. the pattern. If you lose, you're a geek. If you're small, you're a geek etc
Where do we fall on RUTHLESS AGGRESSION Cena vs Kurt Angle in this category of matches?

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by mlev76 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:38 pm

That Joe's laughter fades and Santa ho-hoing comes immediately after truly is an epic ending to a fun show.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:17 pm

Ibushi and Ospreay........ two guys who would be in the top 5 of any credible wrestler of the year poll




what?

Now, besides not really viewing either guys as top 5 locks (I don't think either would make my top 20), what makes Ibushi a super mega lock? Atleast Ospreay I can get it if you like his UK stuff and really factor in drawing power a lot. I mean, even among NJPW super fans, Ibushi would have to be behind Omega, Tanahashi, Okada, and Ospreay right? And that's if you really really love his in-ring resume, because he hasn't even held a title this year, so his drawing power isn't exactly something to hang your hat on.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by mlev76 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:25 pm

armsofsleep wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:17 pm
Ibushi and Ospreay........ two guys who would be in the top 5 of any credible wrestler of the year poll




what?

Now, besides not really viewing either guys as top 5 locks (I don't think either would make my top 20), what makes Ibushi a super mega lock? Atleast Ospreay I can get it if you like his UK stuff and really factor in drawing power a lot. I mean, even among NJPW super fans, Ibushi would have to be behind Omega, Tanahashi, Okada, and Ospreay right? And that's if you really really love his in-ring resume, because he hasn't even held a title this year, so his drawing power isn't exactly something to hang your hat on.
Ibushi had a phenomenal in ring year. I'm not sure what "WOTY" poll the guys were referring to, but by in ring alone,I'd have both guys in my top five with Omega, Riddle and Walter.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:30 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:25 pm
armsofsleep wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:17 pm
Ibushi and Ospreay........ two guys who would be in the top 5 of any credible wrestler of the year poll




what?

Now, besides not really viewing either guys as top 5 locks (I don't think either would make my top 20), what makes Ibushi a super mega lock? Atleast Ospreay I can get it if you like his UK stuff and really factor in drawing power a lot. I mean, even among NJPW super fans, Ibushi would have to be behind Omega, Tanahashi, Okada, and Ospreay right? And that's if you really really love his in-ring resume, because he hasn't even held a title this year, so his drawing power isn't exactly something to hang your hat on.
Ibushi had a phenomenal in ring year. I'm not sure what "WOTY" poll the guys were referring to, but by in ring alone,I'd have both guys in my top five with Omega, Riddle and Walter.
In-ring, Riddle is sort of disqualified for me after having one meaningful match over the last four months of the year. I've liked a lot of Ibushi's stuff (the Naito match being his only real MOTYC but I think the Ishii G1 match was also stellar). I just figured his in-ring resume was a little more divisive then "every credible top 5 list will have him on there".

And all of this is basically with the qualification that you basically have to be obsessed with NJPW to even think like that. I mean, Takeda has a better in-ring resume than anyone in NJPW, super easily, and he headlined for multiple companies. Same for Ishikawa. And even if you count business, AJPW's business is probably strong enough to atleast seriously consider Zeus and Miyahara, who had a match together that is probably better than any match produced by NJPW all year.

It's obviously all up to opinion, but it's why I don't really like the idea of "any credible person will include these two guys" type of grand proclamation.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by mlev76 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:47 pm

Hey,I get not liking the hyperbole. But, I would say that I'm not what you'd call an obsessive NJPW fan and that's my perspective in spite of that. But, of course, your mileage may always vary from anyone on who and who isn't the best at anything.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:49 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:47 pm
Hey,I get not liking the hyperbole. But, I would say that I'm not what you'd call an obsessive NJPW fan and that's my perspective in spite of that. But, of course, your mileage may always vary from anyone on who and who isn't the best at anything.
It's why it's hard to do "worldwide" best of lists in general. Like, not being invested in the NJPW product at all makes it really hard for me to really ride hard for WOTY candidates from the company.


Also, re: KUSHIDA not being a credible heavyweight............






Atleast KUSHIDA has a good believable offense lmao.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Ckkj14 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:27 pm

Ibushi had the greatest G1 in history imo. He's my number 1 Wrestler of the year

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:35 pm

Ibushi would definitely be my MVP of the G1 behind maybe only Naito but the Omega match being a major letdown sort of hurts his overall case.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:40 pm

This ROH discussion has me fired up. Everything you both said was correct and true. They should have seen this coming 2-3 years ago. If they had properly maximized the talent they had that basically ran away to the indies or Evolve/WWE ASAP( Keith Lee, DiJack, Lio Rush, ACH, Cedric, Punishment etc) and brought in all these MLW guys and actually developed their own talent than this wouldn’t be an issue.

But does a company that in theory has a working relationship with CMLL not realize that the other two American non WWE television wrestling companies are out scooping them on guys like LA Park, Rush, Dragon Lee, Pentagon, and Fenix deserve to survive?

Does a company that is owned by a major corporation but can’t get organized to make sure the OTT site functions and that the tv tapings are in line with the PPV schedule( and make air half the time tbh) deserve to survive?

Does a company that gets bullied out of its home territory by it’s business partner and has less balls than its top stars deserve to survive?

Does a company, that aspires to be the number two promotion in the world, when presented with the opportunity by their top stars to run a massive historical show that changes the industry landscape and responds “ No guys that seems too risky but if want to do it without us go ahead and try” deserve to survive?

ROH has made a thousand mistakes that lead to this point. They are not run well, they make it hard to follow them and be a fan and this is their just desserts.

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Re: VOW Flagship: WK13 Card, WWE TLC & ROH Final Battle

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:22 am

armsofsleep wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:17 pm
Ibushi and Ospreay........ two guys who would be in the top 5 of any credible wrestler of the year poll




what?

Now, besides not really viewing either guys as top 5 locks (I don't think either would make my top 20), what makes Ibushi a super mega lock? Atleast Ospreay I can get it if you like his UK stuff and really factor in drawing power a lot. I mean, even among NJPW super fans, Ibushi would have to be behind Omega, Tanahashi, Okada, and Ospreay right? And that's if you really really love his in-ring resume, because he hasn't even held a title this year, so his drawing power isn't exactly something to hang your hat on.
It was a quick, flippant statement to put over the idea of two of the best in ring wrestlers of 2018. It wasn't meant to be in the Flair/Thesz sense, and not meant to be taken as absolute fact. Just another way of saying "these two guys have been really elite this year".

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