VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:18 am

The proper BASTARDS Joe and Rich return for a full-boat episode of the VOW Flagship talking the good and the bad of Dynamite Kid on the day of his passing, PAC winning the Dream Gate championship, DOI DARTS!, a check-in on the World Tag League, the latest on NXT UK's contract specifications and a Hot Pockets segment so long you'd think we were sponsored by Nestle (we aren't but are very open to it!).



MP3: https://audioboom.com/posts/7108953-vow ... league.mp3


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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by Weirzbowski » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 am

I would love to see someone try to explain why R Kelly is cancelled at a stoplight, especially his sex palace prison.
1st sub to the VOW patreon. @berkatron

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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by Danwaka » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:37 am

So this is a belated realization following on from the Q&A podcast, but what do you guys think about one-week title drops and the like? I've been looking at a lot of AJPW title histories from the 70s and 80s, where a gaijin just randomly gets a brief title run for as much as 3 weeks before dropping it back to Baba, Jumbo or Tenryu. For me, I don't really consider those genuine title runs because you know it was just to pop a couple of markets with title changes and it had nothing to do with the booking or course of the business as a while. So for me, someone like Baba or Jumbo actually had much longer and cohesive runs than people recognize, with the caveat that they held the title much fewer times, ala a Bruno Sammartino with the WWWF Championship.

Your thoughts?

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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by Ckkj14 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:13 pm

For anyone who hasn't seen the PAC match its in the Dragon Gate topic in Intl Wrestling. I'd link it here but I'm useless with technology so have no idea how

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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by Joe Lanza » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:18 pm

Danwaka wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:37 am
So this is a belated realization following on from the Q&A podcast, but what do you guys think about one-week title drops and the like? I've been looking at a lot of AJPW title histories from the 70s and 80s, where a gaijin just randomly gets a brief title run for as much as 3 weeks before dropping it back to Baba, Jumbo or Tenryu. For me, I don't really consider those genuine title runs because you know it was just to pop a couple of markets with title changes and it had nothing to do with the booking or course of the business as a while. So for me, someone like Baba or Jumbo actually had much longer and cohesive runs than people recognize, with the caveat that they held the title much fewer times, ala a Bruno Sammartino with the WWWF Championship.

Your thoughts?
We don't really see these anymore, often times a foreign wrestler wanted to win an American title because it would get into all of the newspapers and help them come off as a bigger star back home. I think we've just found other ways to achieve that which is why you don't see it as much anymore.

When it happened in Japan with a gaijin, I suspect it was more about just giving the hero something to overcome, similar to the Memphis/Lawler formula. But you are right, in the grand scheme of analyzing the business of those title runs, the quickie changes shouldn't be considered full runs, but rather a part of the longer run that they interrupted.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by Danwaka » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:34 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:18 pm
We don't really see these anymore, often times a foreign wrestler wanted to win an American title because it would get into all of the newspapers and help them come off as a bigger star back home. I think we've just found other ways to achieve that which is why you don't see it as much anymore. When it happened in Japan with a gaijin, I suspect it was more about just giving the hero something to overcome, similar to the Memphis/Lawler formula. But you are right, in the grand scheme of analyzing the business of those title runs, the quickie changes shouldn't be considered full runs, but rather a part of the longer run that they interrupted.
I suppose the most recent incident would be the Shigehiro Irie / Sami Callihan title change quickie for DDT.

While I've got you here, your (or Rich's) thoughts on a bit of speculation I've seen online that the AEW is a smokescreen for Sinclair selling ROH to the Khan family? I don't think it's too likely myself (why go to the effort of trademarking shit if the mere act of acquiring ROH will get plenty of press), but ROH has for the most part really not reacted to the possibility of losing their biggest draws like you think a company would and given we're still speculating "hey, maybe Bucks are gonna show up for WK" it doesn't feel like NJPW is ready to cast them aside either.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by mlev76 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:43 am

As someone who leaves the microwave with time left on it all the time, all i can say is that it's usually me not wanting the food to explode and/or be scalding hot and I just forget to clear the time.

On the NXT UK talent's response to the letter, all I know is that I really didn't follow UK stuff before WWE UK came along. Sure, I'd seen guys like Ospreay, Zack and Scurll, but the deeper cuts I hadn't discovered yet. Dunne and Bate definitely peaked my interest and got me to attend two PROGRESS shows stateside and to follow the product more closely. So, while I agree Seven's comments were stupid, I can't fault those guys for reacting negatively to a statement from 'some guy' who basically put them outside a scene they definitely helped grow while the writer of said statement is someone clearly fishing for work on an anti-WWE kick. The statement was totally self-serving and while the best course of action was likely to ignore it, given how much play it got, I don't begrudge those guys responding.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:01 pm

One of my issues in really caring about NJPW as a promotion is just how much of it doesn't matter. Every promotion has downtime, that's part of having a year-round schedule and dozens of shows. But NJPW seems particularly bad with it's scheduling at times. Best of Super Juniors almost always feels like a chore by the end of it (and is rarely interesting at all from a booking perspective), the WTL basically just kills time before the biggest show of the year, and almost always kills my hype for it a bit. I know that it's unlikely to ever change in a major way, but NJPW should think about shifting some things around as they transition to a "almost every show makes tape quickly" promotion. It isn't 2005 anymore.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by suplexberry » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:41 pm

The microwaves at my work have the most annoying "finished" sound so I usually leave 10 seconds on the timer, which I then re-set to zero when I take the food out. It makes a pleasant "ping!" when you reset to zero, but when the timer is finished in real time the sound is unbearable.

The BritWres changes are pretty depressing or upsetting, depending on how invested you were in the whole thing. For myself, I haven't been a very active fan in about 18 months besides keeping up with RevPro, so it doesn't affect me as much, it just makes me feel sad that the scene I once was so hyped about exploring and learning everything I could is not gonna be the same. It might still be fun, filled with good talent, but the talent coming up is going to enter a completely different scene, and one dude's payday is going to mean undercutting everybody else's in the long run. I'm also bummed I was never able to see some promotions at the height of the scene. Should've booked those flights to go see Fight Club Pro in a warehouse in Wolverhampton..

Sysum's message was very rahrah and kind of corny but totally right. People who are afraid of doom and gloom scenarios and want to say it won't be as bad really need to listen to that BritWres Roundtable episode. Perhaps it won't be as bad as people are predicting, but it won't be for the better, and it will be enormous change.

Anyway, I'm very happy for PAC's recent success. I was planning on going to see him vs ZSJ at RevPro but work took an unexpected turn so I basically have to stay put for January. Still, I hope to catch it eventually.

Wrt the Dynamite Kid discussion, I am always saddened by the two trends in modern discussion culture today: polarization and lack of nuance. You can acknowledge the bad in some people's past actions and words, while also appreciating their art, or recognizing their talent. On the other hand, there's also a line for people to draw for themselves, and a discussion about the circumstances that allow bad people, even abusive people to succeed and not be kicked out of industries. In wrestling, it's a difficult thing because the abusers and jerks are dime a dozen and some of them are the biggest stars and influences on the modern wrestling that most of us love. But a polarized way of discussing things is keen to just be like, "PERSON BAD" and call it a day. What we need is to unravel the whole package; discuss, not excuse, acknowledge and sometimes question. Now that's a tall order, so it's easier to go "THING BAD" or "these sensitive snowflakes are making too big a deal out of this".

I'm not the biggest Dynamite Kid fan but he influenced one of my all-time favorites Bret Hart a lot, as well as down the line influencing pretty much every single one of my other favorites, right down to younger guys like Ospreay. There's a lot of discussion points that have perhaps been done to death already, people always asking should he be an influence, given all his personal assholery and his quick deterioration, but the facts remain, he is a huge influence whether we want him to be or not.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:01 pm

Tom Billington was unquestionably a miserable bully. He bullied everyone in his life, with the exception of, perhaps, his children. He bullied his tag team partner, he bullied his wife, he bullied promoters, he bullied friends, he bullied wrestlers he saw as beneath him, he bullied animals, his ribs were often way over the line of even what was considered tasteful in 80's pro wrestling. And the thing about it, is I don't think he was exponentially a worse person than many of his generational peers, which feature a cavalcade of racists, sexual deviants, violent sociopaths, rapists, and even murderers. I'm not excusing who he was, but I wonder if he hadn't written his book and been so forthright with his miserable behavior, if a lot of his transgression would fall under the same cloud of rumor and innuendo that the misdeeds of his peers are somewhat protected by.

I don't generally seek out Chris Benoit matches, but if i'm watching a show, I don't skip them either. It's not a "remember the wrestler!!11!" thing, but I do see old matches as part of history, the same way OJ Simpson highlights or Ty Cobb records are what they are, for better or worse. Billington has a lot of parallels to Cobb. A miserable man, driven by insecurities to do heinous things. Both not overtly "worse" than many of their peers, but a lot of those peers didn't have famous books that highlighted just how terrible both dudes were. In the case of Cobb, there has been research done that suggests that at least some of his antics were exaggerated (or flat out invented) by his biographer (Al Stump), to the point some consider it a work of fiction, but even if half of that stuff is true, much like Billington, he existed in a time & space where a lot of the people around him were gambling, carousing, assaulting fans, umpires and women, drinking to the point of death, etc. That doesn't excuse Cobb, but context and perspective always matter. These things are all part of the picture, and where both CANCEL and REMEMBER THE WRESTLER cultures always fall short.

Billington didn't fire off some bad tweets or shitposts. He abused people. He admits it. He showed very little remorse, taking on a more "it is what it is" attitude even when acknowledging how shitty he was. I suppose there is something to be said for owning it. Many of his peers will die with nothing more than beneath the surface rumor & innuendo that won't hurt their legacies.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Dynamite Kid, PAC, NXT UK Deals & World Tag League

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:55 pm

Wait wait wait wait...WITHOUT the sleeve? Like, why would you suggest that? Who even does that?

EDIT: Hey guys, you went over that DG show's semi-main but forgot the ALL-IMPORTANT post-match banter leading to the Triangle Gate match for Final Gate. KAZMA gets a title shot, which I'm sure you guys are ecstatic about...and I'm genuinely ecstatic about.

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