VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by HeadCheese » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:19 am

I watched A-Kid vs. Zack Sabre Jr. it was really great. Thank you guys for sharing the recommendation.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by SuperplexlariatBW » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:21 am

So it's not okay to like Evolve now due to the WWE involvement, but they had no issues with supporting Evolve prior to the NXT and 205 Live names being featured? Did people miss that WWN for years has been releasing talents from contracts when WWE comes calling while not doing the same for other televised promotions? This dates back to when Dean Ambrose first signed with WWE. Did they not see that the idea with Evolve the past few years has been to put indie names under contract that WWE is not yet ready to sign, but still want to make sure that other promotions can't have them?

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by Danwaka » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:58 am

SuperplexlariatBW wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:21 am
So it's not okay to like Evolve now due to the WWE involvement, but they had no issues with supporting Evolve prior to the NXT and 205 Live names being featured? Did people miss that WWN for years has been releasing talents from contracts when WWE comes calling while not doing the same for other televised promotions? This dates back to when Dean Ambrose first signed with WWE. Did they not see that the idea with Evolve the past few years has been to put indie names under contract that WWE is not yet ready to sign, but still want to make sure that other promotions can't have them?
I mean, that's up to the wrestlers. If Kenny Omega chooses to sign with the WWE, are we supposed to blame Triple H over Kenny?

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by rovert » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:26 am

IIDXias wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:19 pm
Since a lot of people are popping in to say these changes have made them more interested in EVOVLE, I feel obliged to say that these changes have made me much less interested. Granted, to Joe's point I wasn't exactly a regular viewer before so you could argue they're not losing much, but had these changes been made BEFORE Wrestlemania weekend tickets went on sale, I would not have purchased a ticket to the EVOLVE show. Given that I barely even watch NXT itself (really just the Takeovers and sometimes not even the full shows), I have zero interest in watching NXT's developmental. And frankly, I don't think I'm the only fan out there right now where closer association with WWE in the current state they're in is a huge turn off.
You have a very legitimate point about the Wrestlemania tickets. And if you have issues with WWE you've issues with WWE.

However, I will say it wasn't like the Street Profits were sitting in chinlocks last weekend. Their match on the Friday show was one of the best matches on the show. And fans have embraced them like true blue EVOLVE guys of old.
SuperplexlariatBW wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:21 am
So it's not okay to like Evolve now due to the WWE involvement, but they had no issues with supporting Evolve prior to the NXT and 205 Live names being featured? Did people miss that WWN for years has been releasing talents from contracts when WWE comes calling while not doing the same for other televised promotions? This dates back to when Dean Ambrose first signed with WWE. Did they not see that the idea with Evolve the past few years has been to put indie names under contract that WWE is not yet ready to sign, but still want to make sure that other promotions can't have them?
Yes.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:10 pm

Finally finished this, the lack of enthusiasm for the Sabre/Taichi pairing made me sad and want to push them both down the stairs...

Also, you guys won't have to worry too much about Kzy potentially getting a shot at being the ace anytime soon: the promotion clearly acknowledges how over he is (given how much more often he's in main events and such now), but don't fully trust he's The Guy either, given how gradual his ascent has been this year. Look at it: gets his Dream Gate shot at the beginning of the year, gets his own unit shortly after that, but performs middle-of-the-pack at King of Gate, is right back at Triangle Gate level now, and his unit is kinda just an accessory to the central storylines going on. Meanwhile, as you guys pointed out, Ben-K has been given the rocket pack this year: two Dream Gate shots, has been a major part of the Antias-to-R.E.D. transition, is arguably the #2 in R.E.D. behind PAC, even though Eita is basically the de facto leader...and is all of this despite Kzy having a boatload of seniority over him and has had to work five times as hard just to get the spot he currently has.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:15 pm

SuperplexlariatBW wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:21 am
So it's not okay to like Evolve now due to the WWE involvement, but they had no issues with supporting Evolve prior to the NXT and 205 Live names being featured? Did people miss that WWN for years has been releasing talents from contracts when WWE comes calling while not doing the same for other televised promotions? This dates back to when Dean Ambrose first signed with WWE. Did they not see that the idea with Evolve the past few years has been to put indie names under contract that WWE is not yet ready to sign, but still want to make sure that other promotions can't have them?
I don't think this is true. From what I understand, WWN contracts had outs for not only WWE, but also Impact.

Now, if you wanna tell me that people carrying on about getting in bed with WWE doesn't make much sense because they've been in bed with WWE for for a long time, I think that's a valid argument. The difference would be that it's way more front facing now, but yeah, if you are making this a moral/ethical stand, I don't really see much of a difference between using Street Profits et al on the main card and using Adam Cole in a dark match.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:19 pm

BlizzardAcolyte wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:10 pm
Finally finished this, the lack of enthusiasm for the Sabre/Taichi pairing made me sad and want to push them both down the stairs...

Also, you guys won't have to worry too much about Kzy potentially getting a shot at being the ace anytime soon: the promotion clearly acknowledges how over he is (given how much more often he's in main events and such now), but don't fully trust he's The Guy either, given how gradual his ascent has been this year. Look at it: gets his Dream Gate shot at the beginning of the year, gets his own unit shortly after that, but performs middle-of-the-pack at King of Gate, is right back at Triangle Gate level now, and his unit is kinda just an accessory to the central storylines going on. Meanwhile, as you guys pointed out, Ben-K has been given the rocket pack this year: two Dream Gate shots, has been a major part of the Antias-to-R.E.D. transition, is arguably the #2 in R.E.D. behind PAC, even though Eita is basically the de facto leader...and is all of this despite Kzy having a boatload of seniority over him and has had to work five times as hard just to get the spot he currently has.
Look, I have nothing against Kzy, he's a good little wrestler that I enjoy watching.

But there are a lot of good little wrestlers that I've enjoyed wrestling through the years that I didn't think had an ace ceiling.

fwiw, as much as I like Ben-K, I don't think he's any sort of lock to fit into that type of role either. The difference, is I think he has full potential to do so.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by mlev76 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:15 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:15 pm
SuperplexlariatBW wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:21 am
So it's not okay to like Evolve now due to the WWE involvement, but they had no issues with supporting Evolve prior to the NXT and 205 Live names being featured? Did people miss that WWN for years has been releasing talents from contracts when WWE comes calling while not doing the same for other televised promotions? This dates back to when Dean Ambrose first signed with WWE. Did they not see that the idea with Evolve the past few years has been to put indie names under contract that WWE is not yet ready to sign, but still want to make sure that other promotions can't have them?
I don't think this is true. From what I understand, WWN contracts had outs for not only WWE, but also Impact.

Now, if you wanna tell me that people carrying on about getting in bed with WWE doesn't make much sense because they've been in bed with WWE for for a long time, I think that's a valid argument. The difference would be that it's way more front facing now, but yeah, if you are making this a moral/ethical stand, I don't really see much of a difference between using Street Profits et al on the main card and using Adam Cole in a dark match.
115 and 116 felt more like the Evolve of old with WWE additions, but the clear difference was on the commentary. Having Lenny Leonard discuss upcoming WWE events, plugging the Network and such made it feel far more like a subsidiary of WWE than a group they have some affiliation with. I wonder if you listened to the show without commentary and were unaware of the origins of some of the wrestlers if you'd notice much difference from the Evolve of old.

I get the principled stance against all things WWE. I also get the "not our product anymore" types though I'm less sympathetic there since "their product' was failing and their support clearly wasn't cutting the mustard.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by IIDXias » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:12 pm

Guys I didn't say anything about taking a "moral/ethical stand". All I was saying was that I personally have no interest in watching a company that is now explicitly serving as the AA-ball to NXT's AAA. Even when I actually watched WWE far more often than I do now I never watched OVW or Deep South Wrestling or any other WWE developmental, so I don't see why it would be controversial to say I have no interest in watching WWE developmental now. I don't think the comparisons to previous iterations of EVOLVE make a lot of sense either in that, while WWE guys may have been making occasional guest appearances for a while now and it may have served as a parking spot to hold talent rather than letting them go to ROH or NJPW, the fact remained that you could watch EVOLVE shows without having it beat over your head that the entire point of the promotion was to send people up to NXT or WWE or 205 Live or anything else. I do think this was a salient point made by the Aarons on the last Everything Evolves that no one really grappled with much (I understand why, since the stuff about not wanting to support WWE for other reasons was far more salacious), that the entire promotion now revolves around getting people ready for WWE/NXT and the only real "storylines" reflect this as well. If you, like me, have no interest in WWE or NXT, why would you want to watch EVOLVE now? You wouldn't.

To be clear RE: Levy's last post, I don't begrudge them for doing what they have to do to keep themselves around, since as he said the support for the promotion wasn't high enough for what they were doing before. And I don't want to pretend I was someone who did more than just drop in on them a few times a year, but I'm not even going to do that for WWE developmental.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by mlev76 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:22 pm

IIDXias wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:12 pm
Guys I didn't say anything about taking a "moral/ethical stand". All I was saying was that I personally have no interest in watching a company that is now explicitly serving as the AA-ball to NXT's AAA. Even when I actually watched WWE far more often than I do now I never watched OVW or Deep South Wrestling or any other WWE developmental, so I don't see why it would be controversial to say I have no interest in watching WWE developmental now. I don't think the comparisons to previous iterations of EVOLVE make a lot of sense either in that, while WWE guys may have been making occasional guest appearances for a while now and it may have served as a parking spot to hold talent rather than letting them go to ROH or NJPW, the fact remained that you could watch EVOLVE shows without having it beat over your head that the entire point of the promotion was to send people up to NXT or WWE or 205 Live or anything else. I do think this was a salient point made by the Aarons on the last Everything Evolves that no one really grappled with much (I understand why, since the stuff about not wanting to support WWE for other reasons was far more salacious), that the entire promotion now revolves around getting people ready for WWE/NXT and the only real "storylines" reflect this as well. If you, like me, have no interest in WWE or NXT, why would you want to watch EVOLVE now? You wouldn't.

To be clear RE: Levy's last post, I don't begrudge them for doing what they have to do to keep themselves around, since as he said the support for the promotion wasn't high enough for what they were doing before. And I don't want to pretend I was someone who did more than just drop in on them a few times a year, but I'm not even going to do that for WWE developmental.
I (at least) was speaking in general terms and not specifically to you, Jon. To be honest, no one has to explain why they don't watch any product of any medium. But, there are those who've said that their moral opposition to all things WWE would not allow them to watch Evolve.

In terms of "the whole promotion revolving around getting people ready for WWE," by the output of 115 and 116, that has not so far been the case. The main event of 115 was grudge match between trainer and trainee. The main event of 116, while featuring a WWE guy, was more about proving where the non-WWE guy stood in the WWN pecking order rather than "is he ready for the call up?"

114 gave everyone a completely legit reason to assume many different things about the future of Evolve and certainly by that show alone, many of the points content wise are valid. 115 and 116 showed, to me at least, it was a bit of an aberration.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by SuperplexlariatBW » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:32 am

Unless someone has a groundbreaking new concept it's either this direction for Evolve or do like everybody else in the non-WWE American scene and run the PWG copycat model.

Other then the Janela shows there's really no creativity out there and it feels like groups are running the same shows every month. I think Meltzer had brought up how some groups are starting to see a decline in diced sales. New stars are not being created and it shows with more reliance on aging midcarders from the 90's and the aughts. David Arquette is really becoming the new thing on the indie scene? They still haven't filled he void left by Keith Lee and Matt Riddle leaving and if the next WWE PC class is a big indie raid like I think it is then the hole is going to get even deeper.

So I think at this point this is he best direction Evolve can take unless like I said, somebody has some new ground breaking concepts.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by supersonic » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:17 am

Is there any company currently with stories that are as deep and tremendously paced as golden age ROH?

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:36 am

supersonic wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:17 am
Is there any company currently with stories that are as deep and tremendously paced as golden age ROH?
I think the issue is consistency with the rosters. A couple of different indie promoters have told me that it's extremely hard to plan very far ahead because you just cant get the dates that far out, and even when you do, a lot of times guys will get an Impact taping or another high profile booking (such as PWG, who had a bad habit of last minute bookings a while back) and holding them to the commitment (or attempting to) ends up making things contentious. ROH never had that problem back in the day, either due to less competition or being the absolute big dog in the game at the time. PWG never has to worry about getting the dates they want, but they don't seem interested in deep, intricate, or long term stories.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by avengers23 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:29 pm

I'm jumping to say that John is a coward for not including WCW in 2001 in the upcoming episode of Wrestling Omakase.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Gabe Sapolsky Interview, Power Struggle & more!

Post by supersonic » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:12 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:36 am
supersonic wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:17 am
Is there any company currently with stories that are as deep and tremendously paced as golden age ROH?
I think the issue is consistency with the rosters. A couple of different indie promoters have told me that it's extremely hard to plan very far ahead because you just cant get the dates that far out, and even when you do, a lot of times guys will get an Impact taping or another high profile booking (such as PWG, who had a bad habit of last minute bookings a while back) and holding them to the commitment (or attempting to) ends up making things contentious. ROH never had that problem back in the day, either due to less competition or being the absolute big dog in the game at the time. PWG never has to worry about getting the dates they want, but they don't seem interested in deep, intricate, or long term stories.
WWE's absolutely dreadful hiring philosophies spanning from 3/26/2001 to 7/17/2011 also played a huge part in ROH having such a consistently available treasure chest of talent too.

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