VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:50 pm

This week on the VOW Flagship we talk the death of ROH on HDNET announcer Mike Hogewood, recap a spectacular ALL IN show, Daniel Bryan's contract status and last but not least, Bouncin' Around Japan covering Shingo's departure from Dragon Gate, more reasons why we are a deathmatch show and the return of KENTA in NOAH.

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armsofsleep
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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:40 pm

"Everyone watching this show knows MJF, it's an inside baseball show"

You guys are severely, severely over-estimating the average audience for this show. Wreddit, Cageside Seats, 411Mania and the like were filled with people who were watching All In as their first ever non-WWE event. Several friends that I know watched the show live were basically only aware of BTE and a handful of ROH/NJPW people. MJF 10000% should've gotten a mic, that's the only reason to have him there! Especially since I promise 85%+ of the audience didn't know who Matt Cross was either.


Edit: "Why care about the timing issues? Raw goes over every week!"

Joe.................. come on. Lmao. The best match of the show got cut in half and ended with less than a minute left in the broadcast. You don't think the common fan noticed that the broadcast got cut off mid-sentence? MID-SENTENCE?! I don't think it's a show ruining thing, but it definitely hurts when the main event was my most anticipated match by far and Scurll/Okada dicked around for 15 minutes right beforehand.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by mlev76 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:18 pm

armsofsleep wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:40 pm
"Everyone watching this show knows MJF, it's an inside baseball show"

You guys are severely, severely over-estimating the average audience for this show. Wreddit, Cageside Seats, 411Mania and the like were filled with people who were watching All In as their first ever non-WWE event. Several friends that I know watched the show live were basically only aware of BTE and a handful of ROH/NJPW people. MJF 10000% should've gotten a mic, that's the only reason to have him there! Especially since I promise 85%+ of the audience didn't know who Matt Cross was either.


Edit: "Why care about the timing issues? Raw goes over every week!"

Joe.................. come on. Lmao. The best match of the show got cut in half and ended with less than a minute left in the broadcast. You don't think the common fan noticed that the broadcast got cut off mid-sentence? MID-SENTENCE?! I don't think it's a show ruining thing, but it definitely hurts when the main event was my most anticipated match by far and Scurll/Okada dicked around for 15 minutes right beforehand.
There seems to be a desire to not separate the "specialness" of the event from the nuts and bolts analysis and give this show a pass where any other show from any other company would be questioned. For example, the claim that this was a massive financial success-well, from revenues and sales figures, yes, that appears likely, but what were the costs? What were the in kind costs contributed by sponsors and partners? How much merchandise was actually brought and did they underestimate demand?

On the critiques of the show, MJF vs. Cross wasn't advertised, so allowing people at home and in the arena to get a quick intro to MJF would have helped especially since his strength is his mic work.

As for the timing issues, when you have a closed window to get a show off in and you have to cut your main event's time because you didn't time things out properly, that's not good. Raw goes over because it can. WWE ppvs go over because they can. All in wasn't given that luxury and maybe the next time they add an additional 30 minute window to allow for timing to be less of an issue. But, when it's as it was, the ending of the show was bush league.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:30 pm

Maybe I am underestimating the audience irt MJF, that's entirely possible.

As far as the timing, they got the match in and it had plenty of time to be great and allow everyone to shine. If it had gotten cut off before the finish or cut entirely or felt extremely rushed in the sense that the wrestlers were thrown off etc, believe me, I'd have buried them 1000 feet under the Earth.

I watched on Tuesday after hearing about a timing disaster for three days, and then didn't see one. Idk. Maybe I was expecting a total mess and when I didn't get one, I came away thinking, what was the big deal?

WCW missed a finish at least once. Nearly every WrestleMania has timing issues. Barely Legal ended with seconds to spare. After almost every ROH PPV you hear stories that they had to scramble to fit everything in. Ideally you nail the timing, of course, but after watching this I saw it as typical wrestling shit. I think Joe Fan who didn't know MJF was none the wiser.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by Wiretaup » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:53 pm

Obviously we don’t know everything about Bryan’s contract negotiations, but I think he fucked up. Not by re-signing with WWE, but by re-signing now.

Granted I’m just spitballing without knowing everything, so please take what I have to say super seriously.

If Bryan’s stuck for another year regardless, it seems like the smart move would be to tell WWE you intend to leave when that year is up. Maybe they bench him again, but Bryan’s not Neville. He’s high profile enough to where there’d be a HUGE stink over it. And I don’t see how WWE could play the same card again after the year is up because they were the ones who refused to use him. But whether they did or didn’t, everyone from promoters to fans would be frothing at the mouth for 9/1/19 to come around. Which coincidentally is just a few short weeks before WWE’s Fox debut, when Bryan would be in an exponentially better position to negotiate than he is now.

Maybe Bryan knew that and that was the leverage he used to get whatever schedule/perks he got without the risk of being forced to not wrestle, which is obviously more important to him than it would be to most people. And it wouldn’t create an awkward situation for Brie if things got heated.

I dunno. Just talking out loud.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:10 pm

Wiretaup wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:53 pm
Obviously we don’t know everything about Bryan’s contract negotiations, but I think he fucked up. Not by re-signing with WWE, but by re-signing now.

Granted I’m just spitballing without knowing everything, so please take what I have to say super seriously.

If Bryan’s stuck for another year regardless, it seems like the smart move would be to tell WWE you intend to leave when that year is up. Maybe they bench him again, but Bryan’s not Neville. He’s high profile enough to where there’d be a HUGE stink over it. And I don’t see how WWE could play the same card again after the year is up because they were the ones who refused to use him. But whether they did or didn’t, everyone from promoters to fans would be frothing at the mouth for 9/1/19 to come around. Which coincidentally is just a few short weeks before WWE’s Fox debut, when Bryan would be in an exponentially better position to negotiate than he is now.

Maybe Bryan knew that and that was the leverage he used to get whatever schedule/perks he got without the risk of being forced to not wrestle, which is obviously more important to him than it would be to most people. And it wouldn’t create an awkward situation for Brie if things got heated.

I dunno. Just talking out loud.
Great post here.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by H.U.S.T.L.E. » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:54 pm

Another thing about the discussion regarding Bryan's contract... I think someone needs to do a thorough investigative report about the fuckery around those contract freeze deals that happened with Mysterio & Bryan.

I know WWE isn't like a normal sport, but can you imagine the shitstorm that would occur if the Spurs had been able to say to Kawhi, "Sorry bud, we know you were injured for a year, but you still owe us that year of service before you can be a free agent." Obviously the NBA is collectively bargained, so that's not a realistic scenario, but just throwing it out there for comparison's sake.

I have no idea how these deals are ethical. I presume that WWE wasn't going to pay Mysterio or Bryan more than their original base salary on that forced extension, so how in the hell can they get away with that? And do we really think that WWE would play that same card for someone like Tamina, who is presumably injured right now? Fat chance.

If that clause actually exists in WWE contracts and guys are still knowingly signing them, it seems idiotic in the current climate now.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by Danwaka » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:10 pm

I made a note of this in the NWA thread, but Aldis worked a lot less shows than Joe thinks he did. Nick Aldis has, according to cagematch, only worked 29 matches in 2018. That's also 29 matches since he won the NWA World Heavyweight Championship last year in December. It's also only six matches more than his list of matches worked in 2017, eight less than in 2016 and sixteen less than in 2015. 23 of those 29 matches were title defenses for the NWA World Heavyweight title.

As a sidenote, glad to hear you agree that anyone could have been the bridge between Tim and Cody. Nick Aldis was a good looking guy who didn't drag the "product" down, but I think the NWA had more options than Rich initially suggested. You kept pointing to ex-NWA guys, but people like Chris Masters, Eli Drake or James Storm could have done just as well.

I feel like Aldis got the spot because Corgan and Lagana were already acquainted with him via TNA and because he really didn't have anything going on.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:14 pm

23 title defenses, in many different countries, in that time frame, is a lot. His overall workload might not have been high, but he did defend the title a bunch.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by mlev76 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:27 pm

H.U.S.T.L.E. wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:54 pm
Another thing about the discussion regarding Bryan's contract... I think someone needs to do a thorough investigative report about the fuckery around those contract freeze deals that happened with Mysterio & Bryan.

I know WWE isn't like a normal sport, but can you imagine the shitstorm that would occur if the Spurs had been able to say to Kawhi, "Sorry bud, we know you were injured for a year, but you still owe us that year of service before you can be a free agent." Obviously the NBA is collectively bargained, so that's not a realistic scenario, but just throwing it out there for comparison's sake.

I have no idea how these deals are ethical. I presume that WWE wasn't going to pay Mysterio or Bryan more than their original base salary on that forced extension, so how in the hell can they get away with that? And do we really think that WWE would play that same card for someone like Tamina, who is presumably injured right now? Fat chance.

If that clause actually exists in WWE contracts and guys are still knowingly signing them, it seems idiotic in the current climate now.
There are also no downside guarantees in sports contracts. You're paid a fixed amount regardless of how many games you play. Unions and collective bargaining are a great thing.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by Danwaka » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:46 pm

Joe Lanza wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:14 pm
23 title defenses, in many different countries, in that time frame, is a lot. His overall workload might not have been high, but he did defend the title a bunch.
America, Australia, Britain and China, to be precise.

And I went back and compared title defense numbers. Nick Aldis is the most frequent defender of the NWA World Heavyweight title since the beginning of the Bruce Tharpe era. That's more than Tim Storm, Jax Dane, Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Rob Conway, Satoshi Kojima, Kahagas, Adam Pearce or Colt Cabana.

You have to go all the way back to Adam Pearce's fourth of five reigns to get to 27 title defenses over 9 months as opposed to 23 title defenses over 8 months. Adam defended in Canada and Germany during that reign and did not defend in China as Aldis did. If you go back even further, it's Adam Pearce in his third of five reigns with 30 title defenses for nearly a year.

Hm. I wish the podcast archive was simpler to trawl through. I'd love to pop back to some older episodes and drop in on the NWA mentions you guys made.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:37 am

A few of Storm's (as well as Dane & Conway's) might be lost in history due to taking place in small, under the radar indies (saw a few of those myself) but yeah, Aldis really did put in work.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by BoxingRobes » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:29 am

re: All-In Main Event...

I would bet, in the future, we look back on that match fondly and it gets a significant bump in critics eyes.

It was a pretty fun, awesome sprint with everything hitting, to me.

I forgive the end quite a bit because of contextualization. Its lost on most people trashing the end. Its literally these guys first time running a show and they were out there for the main event. The fact that the Bucks finished it clean as it was going off the air is impressive, to me.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by BoxingRobes » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:34 am

H.U.S.T.L.E. wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:54 pm
Another thing about the discussion regarding Bryan's contract... I think someone needs to do a thorough investigative report about the fuckery around those contract freeze deals that happened with Mysterio & Bryan.

I know WWE isn't like a normal sport, but can you imagine the shitstorm that would occur if the Spurs had been able to say to Kawhi, "Sorry bud, we know you were injured for a year, but you still owe us that year of service before you can be a free agent." Obviously the NBA is collectively bargained, so that's not a realistic scenario, but just throwing it out there for comparison's sake.

I have no idea how these deals are ethical. I presume that WWE wasn't going to pay Mysterio or Bryan more than their original base salary on that forced extension, so how in the hell can they get away with that? And do we really think that WWE would play that same card for someone like Tamina, who is presumably injured right now? Fat chance.

If that clause actually exists in WWE contracts and guys are still knowingly signing them, it seems idiotic in the current climate now.
Wrestling needs a union. That is the only thing that can be derived from any discussion about this, or similar issues.

They are ethical because they are a legal contract signed by two willing, able parties. Those types of contracts wouldn't exist in a unionized event.

WWE has always played in the gray area between Sports (unionized) and Entertainment (unionized) navigating this realm without the possibility of a union even close to a possibility. Impressive, really.

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Re: VOW Flagship: ALL IN, Hogewood, Bouncin' Around Japan

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:00 pm

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