VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Talk about shows from the Voices of Wrestling podcast network and argue with us here.
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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:14 am

This week on the Voices of Wrestling flagship podcast Joe and Rich review WWE Fastlane 2018, look at the current WWE WrestleManai 34 card and recap the first few nights of NJPW's New Japan Cup.

Find us on:

Apple Podcasts: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/voic ... 53459?mt=2
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MP3: https://audioboom.com/posts/6727050-vow ... a-card.mp3

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phenom951
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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by phenom951 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:40 am

Listening to the show now. Usually I type essays but this'll be quick(er). Huge fan of you both. Y'all smartened me up about the Japanese graps like no one else and now it's favorite form of pro wrestling. Anyway, after a recent pretty shitty life changing event I've been trying to be a little less negative and curmudgeoney in general and started with wrestling. Having not watched Fastlane, the second Joe and Rich started talking about Shinsuke and Rusev's match it's like the entire first half y'all were fans and I got extremely excited to check this shit out like yesterday. You mentioned the crowd loved them both and I already love both in ring. And then, like a light switch it's almost as if Rich had to convince himself he had an issue with it. So the booking got attacked, and then Joe said the booking just flat out stinks overall. By the end because you two are so damn good at putting words together (hence why you do this and why we listen) you've flat out just convinced skeptics, impressionable fans, and then there's just those followers who agree with your reasoning because they respect you the way they do; that you guys just watched a bad match, with shitty booking, that makes you less excited for the Wrestlemania match. Keep in mind, I know that is NOT the point you guys were trying to make because I know y'all love pro wrestling. Hell it was one of the greatest pro wrestling matches and stories that made Rich wanna make a website in the first place. Not meant to be an attack, just an observation.

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BlizzardAcolyte
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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:25 am

FYI, I'm interested in watching Matt Taven. He's merely competent, but his body language always comes off like he's conscious of it, wants to get better so that his push has merit, and works accordingly. I guess I'm just curious to see when he breaks past that barrier, reaches his next skill level, and finally has that singles match that people remember, leaving Massaro and O'Ryan behind to do their own thing in the process.

Separate note: both Joe Lanza & Kris Zellner have managed to mention the Spider-Man meme in the span of a week. Think about that.

EDIT: Would it be possible for the Patreon subscribers to get that cut-out discussion separately? It's irrelevant now but I would be still interested to hear just how you guys framed your reactions at the time.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:28 pm

phenom951 wrote:Listening to the show now. Usually I type essays but this'll be quick(er). Huge fan of you both. Y'all smartened me up about the Japanese graps like no one else and now it's favorite form of pro wrestling. Anyway, after a recent pretty shitty life changing event I've been trying to be a little less negative and curmudgeoney in general and started with wrestling. Having not watched Fastlane, the second Joe and Rich started talking about Shinsuke and Rusev's match it's like the entire first half y'all were fans and I got extremely excited to check this shit out like yesterday. You mentioned the crowd loved them both and I already love both in ring. And then, like a light switch it's almost as if Rich had to convince himself he had an issue with it. So the booking got attacked, and then Joe said the booking just flat out stinks overall. By the end because you two are so damn good at putting words together (hence why you do this and why we listen) you've flat out just convinced skeptics, impressionable fans, and then there's just those followers who agree with your reasoning because they respect you the way they do; that you guys just watched a bad match, with shitty booking, that makes you less excited for the Wrestlemania match. Keep in mind, I know that is NOT the point you guys were trying to make because I know y'all love pro wrestling. Hell it was one of the greatest pro wrestling matches and stories that made Rich wanna make a website in the first place. Not meant to be an attack, just an observation.
Thanks for the feedback. I assure you nothing I do is intentional or a directive, we get on this show to give our honest and true opinions on wrestling. The Rusev/Nakamura match despite being fun with a hot crowd annoyed me because Nakamura is getting built for a huge WrestleMania match. I would love to be able to separate the two and often I can and do but on this night it did legitimately bother me, so that's why I brought it up.

I assure you though there are no gimmicks or forced hatred or whatever, if we like something we'll tell you we like it. If we hate it, we'll tell you we hate it. I'm not going to lie to you guys and pretend I liked something when I didn't or vice versa.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:30 pm

BlizzardAcolyte wrote:Would it be possible for the Patreon subscribers to get that cut-out discussion separately? It's irrelevant now but I would be still interested to hear just how you guys framed your reactions at the time.
I'll talk to Joe about it. I'm uneasy about releasing something where we're arguing against what actually happened. It would be like recording a podcast on Naito's big win over Okada at Wrestle Kingdom 12 and what it means for NJPW. The issue is a lot of what was said was about how people should react, when to react and other shit like that which is completely irrelevant given what happened yesterday. I'll see what Joe thinks but I'm against it right now.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:27 pm

Totally agree on the "heel characters should totally be allowed to say mean things" The problem is, it's so hard to trust WWE's authority in putting these angles on. If this is some random indie promotion running this angle where the wrestlers themselves had all the control and chose to do that, that's one thing. But WWE is the promotion where racist HHH beat Booker T because "his people" don't get to be champions. This is the promotion of Jinder Mahal and Muhammad Hassan, who's heel characters were "please don't be racist" at times. Why would you ever trust there to be some kind of actual thought behind this other than "let's make a fat joke at this person's expense."


It's like the difference between a character on a prestige tv show (like, say, Mad Men) being misogynistic or a character on like Family Guy doing the same thing. If the joke is just meant to be a joke and make you mad, there's no point. If it's there to tell a story, there is a point.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by suplexberry » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:27 am

Yeah, I think the strong reaction to such stuff is mostly not trusting WWE to do the right thing, make a point of it, and instead just do it because it's easy, lazy and even for weird petty reasons like having a dig at their own performer. They have done "u fat" (or its sister "u ugly") in women's feuds since time immemorial. I can't blame people for never wanting to see it again. I think people who still follow the WWE women's stuff passionately desperately want more out of what WWE is going to give them. Like they want better stories, better matches, better everything and WWE seems to still clear the lowest bar and these fans grow very frustrated. Twitter outrage may not work but it's the only thing they got because unlike the Moolah thing, you can't really write to sponsors and be like "Hey I'm generally dissatisfied with the level of creative and story-telling in this company."

Honestly, I'm unsure whether the length of matches benefited NJC this year or not. I think it helped some matches and hurt others. Ishii vs Elgin was one where I feel like even if I didn't dislike the result, the match would've had more impact had it not been as long. The ending felt a bit like overall. I feel somewhat similarly about the Zack vs Naito match, though I was in a weird, tired state when watching it which probably affected my enjoyment overall. The matches being generally so long lead to some discussion about match length in general that I saw, and I'd say NJPW hopefully understands going forward that not even main events need to be 30+ mins always. Some stories need epic stories, other need less epic, shorter still well-told ones. I don't know. This is why SANADA vs Yano was pitch-perfect. It was 5 mins because that's all it needed to be, so everything they did was good and told this story of the wily Yano and the smarter SANADA.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by Stavros » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:59 am

I loathe public trans with the fire of a thousand suns but honestly with a little intuition and access to Google Maps Tokyo was dead easy to get around. I think you guys would be fine there, all the signs are in English so you know where you're going. It's not that hard.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by SamoKuma » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:39 am

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
BlizzardAcolyte wrote:Would it be possible for the Patreon subscribers to get that cut-out discussion separately? It's irrelevant now but I would be still interested to hear just how you guys framed your reactions at the time.
I'll talk to Joe about it. I'm uneasy about releasing something where we're arguing against what actually happened. It would be like recording a podcast on Naito's big win over Okada at Wrestle Kingdom 12 and what it means for NJPW. The issue is a lot of what was said was about how people should react, when to react and other shit like that which is completely irrelevant given what happened yesterday. I'll see what Joe thinks but I'm against it right now.
Guys, flagship is a very lively show, de don't mlisten to you to hear you being right, we listen to you cause it's interesting and fun. Even if you went lat out here, I don't really understand the necessity to cut a full segment of the show.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by Kirk D » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:30 pm

There is no excuse not to come to wXw. Here's the deal: I am going to rent a car anyway, so I pick you up at the airport (with a Voices of Wrestling sign at the gate), bring you to the hotel and from there daily shuttle to Turbinenhalle.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:15 pm

SamoKuma wrote:
Rich Kraetsch wrote:
BlizzardAcolyte wrote:Would it be possible for the Patreon subscribers to get that cut-out discussion separately? It's irrelevant now but I would be still interested to hear just how you guys framed your reactions at the time.
I'll talk to Joe about it. I'm uneasy about releasing something where we're arguing against what actually happened. It would be like recording a podcast on Naito's big win over Okada at Wrestle Kingdom 12 and what it means for NJPW. The issue is a lot of what was said was about how people should react, when to react and other shit like that which is completely irrelevant given what happened yesterday. I'll see what Joe thinks but I'm against it right now.
Guys, flagship is a very lively show, de don't mlisten to you to hear you being right, we listen to you cause it's interesting and fun. Even if you went lat out here, I don't really understand the necessity to cut a full segment of the show.
The entire 40 minute discussion was centered around why WWE would never change their mind on this and why everyone was wasting their time getting up in arms because WWE would never change.

Seems silly to release that hours after WWE did change their minds and everyone was not wasting their time getting up in arms.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:08 pm

I think WWE creative has salvaged Reigns v Lesnar the best they can. The fun thing about Reigns motivation to be so pissed at Lesnar never being there is that it's relateable, how often in life do we feel like we go to work and follow the rules and someone else gets a little special treatment which allows them to outperform us. Inevitably we are always given the excuse that if our results were as good as those who get the special treatment then we would be afforded the same flexibility, which is infuriating since the playing field is unequal. It's a hell of a gambit to have Reigns of all people call somebody out for special treatment but it works with Lesnar because he operates under such a transparently different set of circumstances( the steroid use, his schedule).

Kayfabe wise Reigns really should drive home that he is pissed because he has to endure 300 days of matches and punishment while Lesnar has to endure a dozen at most.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by SamoKuma » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:25 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
SamoKuma wrote:
Rich Kraetsch wrote:
I'll talk to Joe about it. I'm uneasy about releasing something where we're arguing against what actually happened. It would be like recording a podcast on Naito's big win over Okada at Wrestle Kingdom 12 and what it means for NJPW. The issue is a lot of what was said was about how people should react, when to react and other shit like that which is completely irrelevant given what happened yesterday. I'll see what Joe thinks but I'm against it right now.
Guys, flagship is a very lively show, de don't mlisten to you to hear you being right, we listen to you cause it's interesting and fun. Even if you went lat out here, I don't really understand the necessity to cut a full segment of the show.
The entire 40 minute discussion was centered around why WWE would never change their mind on this and why everyone was wasting their time getting up in arms because WWE would never change.

Seems silly to release that hours after WWE did change their minds and everyone was not wasting their time getting up in arms.
Seems only silly if the point is hearing you guys being right about everything, but even wrong, arguments would still have been interesting to hear.

Well, what's done is done, and this week show was fun, so that's now history.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:57 pm

It wasn't a right or wrong issue though. we've been wrong far more times than we've been right. On the podcast, in the edit, I said we were wrong, in tweets I said we were wrong. It was about a conversation centered around telling people you are wasting your time. It wasn't for a second about Joe or I's opinion on the Moolah name but rather the outcry about it and why it was wasted breath.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Fastlane, New Japan Cup, WrestleMania Card

Post by BoxingRobes » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:19 pm

I still want to listen to it for the hot takes.

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