VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:27 pm

Joe and Rich do their best to cover an amazing weekend of pro wrestling with show reviews of NXT TakeOver: Philadelphia and perhaps the greatest match in WWE history, WWE Royal Rumble 2018, the debut of Ronda Rousey, two NJPW New Beginning in Sapporo shows, the Golden Lovers reuniting, Bullet Club fracturing and the emergence of NJPW's next big star.

Note: There is not Voices of Wrestling 2017 Match of the Year discussion on this episode. We will cover it extensively next week. 

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FilipPejic
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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by FilipPejic » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:09 pm

Once again great podcast. The only thing I kinda have disagreed with you guys is when you were comparing Rousey aura that she brings to Tyson s and Lesnar s when they came to wwe after boxing and ufc respectively. Cause she definitely did lose some of her aura as she got completely decimated by holm and Nunes and was a poor sport. While Lesnar lost to Monsters like Cain(after he successfully defended the title 2 times) and Alistair Overeem( who was on the juice during the time). He accepted the losses and did post fight press after his lost which Rousey didn't. So I agree that Rousey is the biggest star for the women and possibly for the company but to say she has the same aura as Tyson or brock coming into the wwe I would disagree with.
Some Guy from Canada that you can follow on twitter @FilipPejic97

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:23 pm

@Lanza: In regards to the 4.75 v 5 star thing (and I'm not taking a shot when I say this. I'm asking in earnest), is the 5 star threshold of "feel" necessarily the most objective means of rating? I understand why that's your threshold but speaking from personal experience after watching the Almas v Gargano at Takeover my initial reaction was "that's 5 stars I think?". After thinking about it I realized that my hesitation wasn't the match's fault, it was my lack of trust in the setting and the WWE that made me hesitate. I had to ask myself if that match happened in Japan or a more intimate venue in an European or American indie where we are more accustomed to seeing a match of that caliber would I have questioned its ultimate greatness and questioned my ultimate enjoyment of? I think it does.

Great show btw.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by billknust » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:59 pm

Just starting the podcast. Was hoping NJPW came first, but WWE instead. Second biggest show of WWE or not, I think you guys can lead with NJPW, especially given your guys rep.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:08 pm

Bloodbuzz Bunk wrote:@Lanza: In regards to the 4.75 v 5 star thing (and I'm not taking a shot when I say this. I'm asking in earnest), is the 5 star threshold of "feel" necessarily the most objective means of rating? I understand why that's your threshold but speaking from personal experience after watching the Almas v Gargano at Takeover my initial reaction was "that's 5 stars I think?". After thinking about it I realized that my hesitation wasn't the match's fault, it was my lack of trust in the setting and the WWE that made me hesitate. I had to ask myself if that match happened in Japan or a more intimate venue in an European or American indie where we are more accustomed to seeing a match of that caliber would I have questioned its ultimate greatness and questioned my ultimate enjoyment of? I think it does.

Great show btw.
For me it's just my gut, and I don't really use objective criteria. I really can't explain in. For any match i've gone five on, Dragon Gate six man, any of the Tanahashi/Okada's, whatever, it's always been because when it was over I was like, THAT is one of the greatest matches I've ever seen, that was perfection. If I find myself thinking about it or if it doesn't just hit me immediately, it's 4.75.

Sounds like what you experienced is "the fear". We've all been afflicted with 5-star fear. Glad you overcame it.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by supersonic » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:16 pm

0:00:00

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throwstuff165
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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by throwstuff165 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:53 am

Great show, few things I want to comment on so apologies for the long post.

- Rich, when talking about Velveteen Dream, briefly mentioned the match rehearsal thing that some of the greener NXT workers do. That doesn't matter to me one bit when talking about match quality, but would it be a stretch to say it's a mistake in the long run in terms of development? I don't feel like it's that different from the issues with the way they teach promos, which have been discussed on the show ad nauseum. They're encouraged to learn how to memorize lines, and when they're put in any kind of situation that requires improvisation, they're screwed. Same thing here. Match comes off the rails, Dream can't put it back together, even when the guy across the ring is Kassius Ohno. From that perspective, I do kind of have a problem with it. It's hindering wrestlers from actually learning how to work.

- I think you could make the argument that Johnny Gargano has been one of the top 25ish wrestlers in the world for each one of the last ten or so years and it's awesome he's finally getting that recognition. I think it's completely reasonable to start thinking of him as an all-timer. He's an incredible babyface, did fantastic heel work on the indies, has had great tag teams with a variety of different wrestlers, and he can even work comedy if he really feels like it. There's no role he's ever been given that he hasn't thrived in.

- Is it a hot take to say I actually prefer the split shows that New Japan's been doing? The Sapporo shows are a good example of why. Tanahashi/Suzuki and White/Omega both deserved main event slots, even if the latter was more so because of the post-match stuff. Either way, though, whichever of those stories ends up second from the top loses something important. From a fan perspective, we're still getting the same matches, but they're in positions to be even better. We still get the absolutely stacked supercards a few times a year, and the multiple B-level shows mean we may actually end up with a higher volume of great matches by year's end than we would have if they were trying to stack everything.

- I think I'm the high man on these Bucks/R3K matches. I've had both of them this month at 4 1/2 stars. They're right up there with the Time Splitters series with the best 2v2 matches the Bucks have ever had.

- NJPW has been setting Jay White's character up perfectly and almost everyone is missing it. They saw that everyone thought he was a little goofy looking with a silly gimmick, and they managed to work it into his gimmick. Okada let him into CHAOS because he didn't take White's threats seriously, like, "Yeah, fine, young boy, come after me whenever you want, you're a joke." Omega tried to recruit him because he incorrectly thought he'd be satisfied being a lackey, and then he ended up losing the title to him because he STILL wasn't taking him seriously. And all the while, like y'all said, he's stirring the pot. He's the villain behind the curtain, the unassuming manipulator who no one realizes is dangerous until his plans are already in motion and it's too late to stop them. It's awesome stuff and the payoff is going to be a ton of fun.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by rovert » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:17 am

Shawn Michaels has a limited/personal frame of reference somewhat obviously but he compares Shayna to Vader.

Juice Robinson on a recent PWInsider interview called Chase Owens as one of the best or most underrated night to night workers in New Japan. Works well with everyone and gives it 100% even on the tiniest house show.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:38 am

I was surprised how high you guys were on AoP vs reDragon. I've always thought AoP have been great and underhyped. They proved they could have a straight up match against Sanity, which I liked even more than this last match.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:01 am

I thought Ember carried Shayna in that match. I feel the need to defend Ember because I feel like she's got way more upside than this show gives her credit for. Besides the cool finish, her athleticism and offense looks way better than even women I enjoy like Charlotte and Naomi. Her strikes look good, and no other woman moves like her. And I think she's more over than was said.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by supersonic » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:54 am

White’s gimmick sounds very similar to the “locker room lawyer” label Bill Watts used to describe Jake Roberts in The Cowboy and the Cross.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:20 pm

Completely agree about Jay White. I think he will be THE wrestling breakout star of 2018. Loved how Omega was protected in that match. The spot where Jay barely lifted his shoulder on a two count. Omega kicking out at 4 at the finish. Jay still definitively won but you could tell they protected the hell out of Omega.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by Ferrante207 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:46 pm

Lanza treats his rookies like Larry Brown.

AOP vs Red Dragon fucking ruled and I'm glad you gave that match it's due.

Rich's gargano bias is strong from his midwest indy salad days. Great wrestler, but let's pump the breaks on all time. White meat baby face stories also do not resonate with everyone. It comes off as corny AF to me and almost so over the top. I am also kind of buying into the JR Roe "white savior" theory. I don't need Rudy in my wrestling. From a pure pro wrestling only bell to the bell perspective this match was great but not otherworldly. I know I'm in the minority due to my own personal preferences. With some juice and some lifts we could get Gargano to an acceptable main event size. Imagine him in the ring with Kane. I thought he looked silly side by side with Hero. By indy mindset has taken over all wrestling, so I know I'm in the minority.

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by Ferrante207 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:58 pm

PS: I just realized Gargano is my Cima A LA Milo from the voice gate. An objectively great, universally praised wrestler I just fucking hate and am critically blinded due to this. This may be a good discussion thread for later. Who's your CIMA?

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Re: VOW Flagship: TakeOver, Royal Rumble, New Beginning & more

Post by Stavros » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:17 pm

RE Chase I don't think he's going for a push this year, he's just being set up stronger as a Young Lion gatekeeper for Kitamura to beat. He gets pins in tags where hes not the senior on his team but almost always against Young Lions, usually Kitamura or Oka lately.

I really feel like if Kitamura wins any if his challenge series it's against Owens.

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