VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:47 pm

Topics on this week's Voices of Wrestling flagship podcast include a look at the much-anticipated Tim Storm/Nick Aldis match, what's next for Storm and the NWA and how their simple approach to building matches is working.

We then get very WWE-heavy as we preview their upcoming weekend including NXT TakeOver: War Games, WWE Survivor Series 2017 as well as discussions about the release of James Ellsworth and changes to the WWE India Tour.

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armsofsleep
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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:19 pm

ROH: Cody being replaced by Gresham or Ospreay would probably be close to the Jinder/AJ thing.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by BackLash » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:03 am

Pretty sure, I'm late on this but FWIW Swagger decided to do MMA for Bellator.


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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by mlev76 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:41 am

Adam Cole is someone who has done everything right by way of building himself up through openness to fans, connecting with the right people and promotions and finding something that fans can easily latch onto. His work has never been especially inspiring and his WWE stuff so far hasn't been promising. I hope WWE sees this and realizes the money guy to go with next is Wolfe, not him. But, given who runs NXT, him becoming the next NXT champion seems almost inevitable.

Mahal ain't going anywhere, but I agree with Rich that he's done as a top champion. Right down to the aftermath of his title reign, he is JBL redux. I don't think Joe is right about India being a pipe dream, but cracking that nut will take more time and patience than WWE likely has.

One fun fact (or shocking fact): Orton vs. Mahal has drawn two of the three biggest non TV taping/PPV crowds this year for shows in Puerto Rico and Chile. I don't attribute it to either man (and don't give individual wrestlers much credit for any house shows) drawing wise. So, maybe the play was to have Jinder pretend to be the long lost cousin of Tito Santana or Pedro Morales.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by Ckkj14 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:07 am

"Adam Cole might be the 9th best person in his match"

Easy Joe! Big Adam Cole fan here. Looking forward to this weekend. Expecting some great wrasslin

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by rovert » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:38 am

In defence of Ellsworth he finally got Carmella a reaction from the crowd and over that hump in theory. Next will be interesting
Ckkj14 wrote:"Adam Cole might be the 9th best person in his match"

Easy Joe! Big Adam Cole fan here. Looking forward to this weekend. Expecting some great wrasslin
Expecting Adam to immediately slap on a chinlock and stay there for the whole match tonight at War Games.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by Speedy Bellerin » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:55 am

I was listening to old VOW flagships from before I started listening and managed to hear the original Joes toilet discussion and this weeks on the same day. I feel like it was the will of the podcast gods.

Maybe the Ballcock isn't the problem if you're replacing the Ballcock and still have a busted flush.

I've always liked Adam Cole, enjoy his matches and his laid back arrogance. I suppose he can be seen as a bit generic and over pushed. Just someone who divides opinion I guess.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by suplexberry » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:46 pm

The Jinder victory lap is interesting because I think everybody was suspicious or wary for a good reason. Actually, a couple of good reasons. I know why they did it, but why do it this way? Why appeal to a market with a heel character played by a guy who wasn't that good? If they had any, and I mean any, market data on India, surely it shows Indians love John Cena (outside of like, Indian smarks, of which there are plenty online) and maybe Randy Orton. Honestly Jinder as the Indian Cena might've worked wonders - automatic heel for the outside India audience, and to the Indian smarks who don't care, and perfect babyface for the Indian market who love their clean babyfaces.

I'm a card-carrying SJW so I think representation matters and all that but holy hell, the logic behind the way they did it puzzles me. The only thing I can come up as with as to why to do it like this is because it wasn't a genuine push forward, it was a flex that looks nice to the shareholders, some sort of odd trial at the whim of Vince, and maybe the actual India move comes when they have somebody ready at the Performance Center. Maybe the actual move towards the Indian market is Kavita Devi or whoever, and maybe that one they won't mess up.

I'm not Indian but I would classify myself as more than familiar with the country based on years of studying it, both academically and as a hobby, and honestly the only way to penetrate that market in terms of entertainment is to partner with local knowledge. Not one or two business consultants, either, I'm talking local entertainment specialists. Hollywood flopped trying to make Bollywood movies - they only succeeded once they basically struck up co-production deals with local studios, local directors and local crews. The problem WWE has, ironically, is nobody promotes wrestling in India. But all the more reason to study locally what it would take to take the youtube audiences and turn them into fans passionate enough to give WWE actual money. It may take some outside the box thinking, too. India also presents unique challenges like a pretty explosive political environment where certain innocuous things flare up into massive polemics. Not stepping into a land mine like that would also require local expertise.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by mlev76 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:03 pm

suplexberry wrote:The Jinder victory lap is interesting because I think everybody was suspicious or wary for a good reason. Actually, a couple of good reasons. I know why they did it, but why do it this way? Why appeal to a market with a heel character played by a guy who wasn't that good? If they had any, and I mean any, market data on India, surely it shows Indians love John Cena (outside of like, Indian smarks, of which there are plenty online) and maybe Randy Orton. Honestly Jinder as the Indian Cena might've worked wonders - automatic heel for the outside India audience, and to the Indian smarks who don't care, and perfect babyface for the Indian market who love their clean babyfaces.

I'm a card-carrying SJW so I think representation matters and all that but holy hell, the logic behind the way they did it puzzles me. The only thing I can come up as with as to why to do it like this is because it wasn't a genuine push forward, it was a flex that looks nice to the shareholders, some sort of odd trial at the whim of Vince, and maybe the actual India move comes when they have somebody ready at the Performance Center. Maybe the actual move towards the Indian market is Kavita Devi or whoever, and maybe that one they won't mess up.

I'm not Indian but I would classify myself as more than familiar with the country based on years of studying it, both academically and as a hobby, and honestly the only way to penetrate that market in terms of entertainment is to partner with local knowledge. Not one or two business consultants, either, I'm talking local entertainment specialists. Hollywood flopped trying to make Bollywood movies - they only succeeded once they basically struck up co-production deals with local studios, local directors and local crews. The problem WWE has, ironically, is nobody promotes wrestling in India. But all the more reason to study locally what it would take to take the youtube audiences and turn them into fans passionate enough to give WWE actual money. It may take some outside the box thinking, too. India also presents unique challenges like a pretty explosive political environment where certain innocuous things flare up into massive polemics. Not stepping into a land mine like that would also require local expertise.
I go back to a podcast with Big Show earlier this year where he was heaping praise on Jinder. It was recorded pre-title win and released slightly after. I take words from veterans like Show as a good sign of a company's faith in a given performer. Nothing of what he said had anything to do with India. It was all about him working hard to make a name for himself on this run.

I would guess that it was something along the lines of 1) they decided to push JInder and then 2) tried to use it to gain a foothold in the Indian market. The fact that the planning both in and out of the ring didn't produce results is therefore not shocking. I'd say the recruitment efforts and tryouts they have done with Khali are much more likely to reap real results, but even then, there's no guarantee that it will work any better than the China efforts.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by Leo C » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:46 pm

suplexberry wrote:The Jinder victory lap is interesting because I think everybody was suspicious or wary for a good reason. Actually, a couple of good reasons. I know why they did it, but why do it this way? Why appeal to a market with a heel character played by a guy who wasn't that good? If they had any, and I mean any, market data on India, surely it shows Indians love John Cena (outside of like, Indian smarks, of which there are plenty online) and maybe Randy Orton. Honestly Jinder as the Indian Cena might've worked wonders - automatic heel for the outside India audience, and to the Indian smarks who don't care, and perfect babyface for the Indian market who love their clean babyfaces.

I'm a card-carrying SJW so I think representation matters and all that but holy hell, the logic behind the way they did it puzzles me. The only thing I can come up as with as to why to do it like this is because it wasn't a genuine push forward, it was a flex that looks nice to the shareholders, some sort of odd trial at the whim of Vince, and maybe the actual India move comes when they have somebody ready at the Performance Center. Maybe the actual move towards the Indian market is Kavita Devi or whoever, and maybe that one they won't mess up.

I'm not Indian but I would classify myself as more than familiar with the country based on years of studying it, both academically and as a hobby, and honestly the only way to penetrate that market in terms of entertainment is to partner with local knowledge. Not one or two business consultants, either, I'm talking local entertainment specialists. Hollywood flopped trying to make Bollywood movies - they only succeeded once they basically struck up co-production deals with local studios, local directors and local crews. The problem WWE has, ironically, is nobody promotes wrestling in India. But all the more reason to study locally what it would take to take the youtube audiences and turn them into fans passionate enough to give WWE actual money. It may take some outside the box thinking, too. India also presents unique challenges like a pretty explosive political environment where certain innocuous things flare up into massive polemics. Not stepping into a land mine like that would also require local expertise.
Would you say that India's overall economy is also a big issue? I have to agree with Joe in the "EVERYBODY'S POOR" argument as the situation is similar where I live (and in India I imagine it is much worse from the little I know). There are a lot of people who do want to watch wrestling but just don't have the money, and WWE charges absurdly expensive tickets. This is completely different from the UEA, for example, which WWE seems to run quite often as people have a lot of disposable income there.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by FilipPejic » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:26 pm

Great podcast as usual, I m guessing Rich and Joe haven’t watched smackdown lately because I think the Uso s are going to lose due to Jey s injury that he suffered from Gable leading to the continuation of that feud on smackdown. As well they would have known hype bros are facing Harper and Rowan next week.

As well as someone who watches chikara there is no point of talking about it besides king of Trios. They never recovered after the shut down and this possible be the weakest roster in some time in Chikara. The only interesting going right now is Dasher Hatfield having hoss matches against Merlok, Moose and Keith Lee
Some Guy from Canada that you can follow on twitter @FilipPejic97

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by Joe Lanza » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:41 am

FilipPejic wrote:Great podcast as usual, I m guessing Rich and Joe haven’t watched smackdown lately because I think the Uso s are going to lose due to Jey s injury that he suffered from Gable leading to the continuation of that feud on smackdown. As well they would have known hype bros are facing Harper and Rowan next week.

As well as someone who watches chikara there is no point of talking about it besides king of Trios. They never recovered after the shut down and this possible be the weakest roster in some time in Chikara. The only interesting going right now is Dasher Hatfield having hoss matches against Merlok, Moose and Keith Lee
I watch SD in bunches like two or three at a time, and Rich doesn't watch at all I don't think. I will catch up on SD sometime this weekend before the PPV.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by suplexberry » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:47 am

Leo C wrote: Would you say that India's overall economy is also a big issue? I have to agree with Joe in the "EVERYBODY'S POOR" argument as the situation is similar where I live (and in India I imagine it is much worse from the little I know). There are a lot of people who do want to watch wrestling but just don't have the money, and WWE charges absurdly expensive tickets. This is completely different from the UEA, for example, which WWE seems to run quite often as people have a lot of disposable income there.
I'd say it plays a part but how much would be the question to ask the marketing research team. I mean, I know well-paid Indians (who live and work in India's Silicon Valley) who still complain about multiplex prices. I'm sure some people have the money and are willing to spend it but obviously not everybody, and some of those with extra money would rather allocate it elsewhere, like a movie theater or a new fridge or saving it for your kids. We all make these calculations but 9.99 USD is not going to be pocket money to most Indians as it would be for me, living in a rich country.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by Danwaka » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:42 am

Speaking as someone in a third world country, I stopped my NJPW World subscription when I moved back home because the 8 bucks or so I was spending became a lot more near and dear. It went from being "I guess I'll just not buy some non-essentials this week" to "Yeah, I need this money elsewhere given I'm making a quarter of what my friends are making in the UK at best".

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Re: VOW Flagship: Survivor Series, War Games & NWA/Tim Storm

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:14 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
FilipPejic wrote:Great podcast as usual, I m guessing Rich and Joe haven’t watched smackdown lately because I think the Uso s are going to lose due to Jey s injury that he suffered from Gable leading to the continuation of that feud on smackdown. As well they would have known hype bros are facing Harper and Rowan next week.

As well as someone who watches chikara there is no point of talking about it besides king of Trios. They never recovered after the shut down and this possible be the weakest roster in some time in Chikara. The only interesting going right now is Dasher Hatfield having hoss matches against Merlok, Moose and Keith Lee
I watch SD in bunches like two or three at a time, and Rich doesn't watch at all I don't think. I will catch up on SD sometime this weekend before the PPV.
I watch SmackDown via YouTube most weeks and see the big highlights.

While it makes sense that they'd have the Usos lose for that reason... it's still WWE so you never fucking know.

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