VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Talk about shows from the Voices of Wrestling podcast network and argue with us here.
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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:03 pm

It wasn't easy but it's here — this week's Voices of Wrestling flagship podcast talks Neville walking out of WWE, Jimmy Jacobs parting ways with the company, NJPW's King of Pro-Wrestling, WWE Hell in a Cell, the Sami Zayn/Kevin Owens story, NJPW/ROH Global Wars and much more.



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Joe Lanza
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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:46 pm

If you're tired of me complaining about Daryl, a rant about how ridiculous it is was cut out of this.

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soup23
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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by soup23 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:23 am

bad form using the LInda McMahon theme to segue between the two of you instead of the WM2 opening saxophone beat with the guy saying "what the world has come to"

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by suplexberry » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:25 pm

I like how Joe tries to work an angle and tease a Flagship split but Rich just tells us things will be back to normal next week.

I can definitely understand Neville and others wanting to get out but I can also sympathize with staying, especially if you're one of the guys who's never been a full-time indy wrestler. The hustle of an indy worker is stressful in its own way, if you're used to just drawing a steady pay and not being your own boss, manager and PR person, it's a tough adjustment. But one would hope a few guys make the jump and test those waters, I think there's a lot of opportunity out there, especially if you know your stuff on where it's not only cool to work to be seen by people, but which promotions are professional in conduct and not on some Canuck Pro shit.

Joe, I really loved the bit you wrote about the lack of heel/face delineation in your KOPW review. It's been a theme for about two years in NJPW but I've been thinking about it a lot as of late because not only has Naito never stopped doing some of the stuff that got him booed in 2015, even when he's not the people's hero who appeals to the fans in promos and fist-bumping cute kids in Korakuen every chance he gets, Okada is becoming increasingly a jerk but he's kind of a jerk who's right. Even when he says stuff like, "If Naito is the hero, I'm the final boss", you've got to also admit he's right because of the way his push has been built.

I think I like it personally because it's never this kind of confusing "who is this guy, do I cheer or boo?" lack of direction, it's more the fact that these characters genuinely feel multifaceted. These both 'modes' of wrestling sort of exist in their characters simultaneously. KUSHIDA is a babyface who is overall wholesome and cheer-worthy but he's got an edge and he doesn't mind taking the fight to his opponent even if the crowd dislikes his Danielson stomps and they're definitely not "pure" babyface. Tanahashi is our fading hero but just like every man who has been at the top of his game, he's got an ego, so when the jerk Tana comes out to play, it's not disorientating, it's just a mood switch where he doesn't give a damn about kissing babies or hugging ladies for the duration of this one match. It's easy to buy into.

There's a PROGRESS match I absolutely loathed between Ciampa and Haskins back in the day because of how directionless it felt. Ciampa did comedy, then he played babyface, then he started heeling off on Haskins, but turned back into a face by the end. I was just so lost on what I was supposed to feel during the match, it didn't seem to make storyline sense, it didn't make for a very coherent match psychology, I just hated it. To me that's really the test of "shades of grey" characters - does it make sense for the situation, the match psychology, and most importantly, does the crowd buy into it wholesale.

Jesus I've already rambled a novel. Absolutely agreed on Will Ospreay. His PROGRESS run made me a fan but his heel turn in PROGRESS solidified that this guy is absolutely going to only continue getting better. His style may not be everybody's cup of tea but if you don't think he sells I genuinely don't understand if we're watching the same matches. I think promos are still keeping him from being a top 5 guy in my books but his promo after the KOPW match was very good, probably because he drew from a lot of genuine emotion.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:26 pm

suplexberry wrote: I can definitely understand Neville and others wanting to get out but I can also sympathize with staying, especially if you're one of the guys who's never been a full-time indy wrestler. The hustle of an indy worker is stressful in its own way, if you're used to just drawing a steady pay and not being your own boss, manager and PR person, it's a tough adjustment. But one would hope a few guys make the jump and test those waters, I think there's a lot of opportunity out there, especially if you know your stuff on where it's not only cool to work to be seen by people, but which promotions are professional in conduct and not on some Canuck Pro shit.
We asked TJP this question right before his last TNA run and he basically echoed this. He said he was tired of the grind and being his own boss, and that he was ready to sign a deal with someone because he wanted to eliminate all of that hustle and be told where to be, when to be there, and know he was getting a steady check each month.

It's really a personality thing, and where people are in their careers. I would never survive in a 9-5 cubicle environment, I hate structure and staring at the same four walls, I need something different every day and love working out of my car, so that's the career path I've chosen. I'm guessing if I were a wrestler, i'd prefer the indie life as opposed to TV is Monday, house shows are three days, then I have the same day off every week, etc.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by Danwaka » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:30 pm

Yeah, I'm the exact opposite of Joe. I love the 9 to 5 style and I find it very reassuring and stable as someone just entering the full-time employment market. I did the part-time hustle and grind through five or so years of university and I fucking hated it. I would definitely be an Abyss or a Zack Ryder than be the Young Bucks.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by Leo C » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:56 pm

I totally agree with Joe: Taichi/Kanemaru and Despy/TAKA as the SZKG tags was just wrong.

I really don't think War Machine is leaving though, as they sworn revenge on KES on their post match promo. Thankfully they did not ask for a rematch and just said they'd win the Tag League, so they'll probably stick around until the Dome at least.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by FilipPejic » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:49 am

Great podcast I’m surprised Joe doesn’t think there is a possibility of doing a multi man match for IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title because it s been done in the past. I think they might be doing Ospreay/KUSHIDA/Hiromu and then have R3K win the junior tag tournament and face the young bucks at wk
Some Guy from Canada that you can follow on twitter @FilipPejic97

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by BoxingRobes » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:40 pm

Its a shame you boys tapped out on Lucha Underground...rightfully so after the end of Season 2 and the first half of Season 3, but considering you two watch some real bullshit like TNA and other trash...you're doing yourself a disservice not watching LU, which has been fucking GREAT weekly episodic wrestling in the second half of Season 3. Scaled back on the goofy shit (although, its still there a little bit), with some big matches and a very high floor weekly...I wish you boys were in on this one.

Next week gonna be some great stuff. Can't wait.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:24 pm

BoxingRobes wrote:Its a shame you boys tapped out on Lucha Underground...rightfully so after the end of Season 2 and the first half of Season 3, but considering you two watch some real bullshit like TNA and other trash...you're doing yourself a disservice not watching LU, which has been fucking GREAT weekly episodic wrestling in the second half of Season 3. Scaled back on the goofy shit (although, its still there a little bit), with some big matches and a very high floor weekly...I wish you boys were in on this one.

Next week gonna be some great stuff. Can't wait.
I echo this sentiment. I too jumped ship but it's turned around quite a bit recently.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:31 pm

Couldn't agree with Joe more about Neville and Will Ospreay.

With Ospreay it's similar to how I felt about Okada since 2014 (though it's not applicable anymore), that he's been underrated despite the hype. I feel Ospreay's style, age and overall cheekiness works against him in that people don't WANT to call a 5 year pro, 24 year old kid that does flipz one of the best in the world. If you look at his match quality output since late 2014 though, he's almost unrivaled. Especially when you consider the range of opponents he's worked with. Has anyone had more MOTY quality matches with different people than him since late 2014? I actually feel that one day he will have the title of THE best wrestler in the world, when the Okada's and Omega's start to slow down a bit and Ospreay matures even more and surpasses them.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:37 pm

Hearing the way Rich no sold Jay Lethal...is Lethal the most underrated wrestler by smarks out there? Dude does nothing but have good matches, and nobody is ever excited about him or thinks his matches will be any good. From Omega, to Fish, to Silas, Jay Briscoe, Colt Cabana...even Cody, dude just has good, well paced, psychologically sound professional wrestling matches. And smarks never seem to give him credit, am I wrong about that?

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by supersonic » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:13 pm

Lethal very rarely has a true standout match, and has maybe once ever had a dramatic enough match to be generally considered as a MOTYC.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:49 am

BoxingRobes wrote:Its a shame you boys tapped out on Lucha Underground...rightfully so after the end of Season 2 and the first half of Season 3, but considering you two watch some real bullshit like TNA and other trash...you're doing yourself a disservice not watching LU, which has been fucking GREAT weekly episodic wrestling in the second half of Season 3. Scaled back on the goofy shit (although, its still there a little bit), with some big matches and a very high floor weekly...I wish you boys were in on this one.

Next week gonna be some great stuff. Can't wait.
I'm half a year behind on PROGRESS, months behind on DG, haven't seen a single DDT match all year, and still haven't watch BOSJ. Adding something else to my plate just isn't realistic. Something has to give, and in this case, it's Spooky CHIKARA.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Neville, Jimmy Jacobs, KOPW, HIAC & more!

Post by mlev76 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:37 pm

I'm with Rich on Neville in terms of saying if he's unhappy, he should definitely leave and try something else. But, I think we overestimate the success rate of those taking a chance on themselves. Of recent vintage, I recall 3 examples-CJ Parker/Juice Robinson, Sami Callihan and Cody Rhodes.

The first two really hadn't progressed all that far in NXT and so asking for a release and going elsewhere wasn't an exceptionally huge risk compared to leaving the main roster. This isn't to denigrate either man's success (regardless of whatever one thinks of Sami)-both came out to no guarantees of anything and did very well by believing in themselves.

I think people give Cody far more credit than he deserves in this regard. Now, this isn't to say that where he is is not because of his hustle and work, but let's be honest-he get an open door to virtually every non-WWE promotion on earth. He was linked to the hottest non WWE act on the planet and was made ROH champion over rising loyal talent within 6 months of his debut. It's also worth noting that his family lineage created many of these openings due to the loyalty, respect and positive feelings Dusty created in wrestling. He absolutely should use that as anyone should use ANY connections and opportunities they are given.

Which brings us back to Neville. If talent and work ethic are barometers of success, then he'll do great. I am a bit more skeptical that he will end up in a better spot than he would if he had stuck with WWE. For all the points Joe made, it's a fact that he worked a traditional main roster schedule this year, worked more pay-per-views (excluding pre-show matches) than his previous years on the main roster and unlike most 205 guys, was signed as a main roster guy. Could he have gone on to have been slotted as a TV only 205 guy? Possibly. But, I don't think so. and a little patience might have allowed him to reemerge in the midcard title scene.

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