VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Talk about shows from the Voices of Wrestling podcast network and argue with us here.
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Rich Kraetsch
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VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:58 pm

After weeks of pro wrestling calmness, the world has exploded around us once again and the Voices of Wrestling flagship is here to break it all down. On this week's episode, Joe Lanza and Rich Kraetsch talk the life and legacy of one of the greatest wrestling personalities of all time: Bobby Heenan, the breaking news of FloSlam suing their streaming partner WWNLive, Dragon Gate's emotional Dangerous Gate 2017 show, WWE No Mercy 2017, a recent WWE Network survey and much more!

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armsofsleep
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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by armsofsleep » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:50 pm

Michael Scott is Mauro. Come on guys.

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Wiretaup
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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by Wiretaup » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:59 pm

armsofsleep wrote:Michael Scott is Mauro. Come on guys.
Absolutely

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by FilipPejic » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:53 am

For the Office my choices for the characters
Creed- Ceaaro
Andy- Byron Saxton
Ryan - Tom
Kelly- Alicia Fox or one of The Iconic Duo
Some Guy from Canada that you can follow on twitter @FilipPejic97

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suplexberry
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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by suplexberry » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:24 am

Ryan & Kelly as Tom & Alicia Fox makes me feel nostalgic ..for something that happened on the App like 3 years ago. I support it.

I'm gonna listen to the DG portion of the show after I finish my rewatch this weekend.

Not a lot to add to the Heenan discussion. As a fan who had to study up on older stuff as I was never exposed to it as a kid, his commentary on some old Bret Hart matches I watched was very influential to me in how commentary can/should work. A lot of commentary today just doesn't do anything for anybody.

I took the survey despite the fact I'm not gonna subscribe again. I think the scripted drama/comedy bit may have also been influenced by Netflix's GLOW. Though we don't know Netflix's figures on it, it at least got that usual Netflix original buzz for a week or two and tons of wrestling fans liked it, and plenty of those who aren't fans got into it, too. I don't know how WWE thinks they will finance such projects if a studio show like the Edge & Christian show got cut because it's too expensive, I guess that premium tier is gonna solve all problems.

I think there's an article to be written about the consumerism of the hardcore wrestling fan. Maybe it's that I'm in the bubble as deep as you can get but it seems like a very relevant topic - with WWE talking of "superserving" fans and Flo trying (and failing) to get that fan segment on board as well, and the overall media consumer trends showing that people want niche but they also want ease. The people who care enough to spend money on more than one pro wrestling streaming service, or actually buy individual events or buy every Young Bucks shirt - there's the consumer who spends a lot of money on this thing, but they're not the easiest segment to appease. Like the reason Flo looks like a failure is that the fans they want are also going to be discerning fans, who are gonna look at the production value critically or things like promotions flirting with Flo but then not going with them.

This segment of fans is gonna get into Twitter tiffs about stuff like social media presentation, marketing and branding with the promotions they give money to. There's a base level "maybe don't treat your fans/potential fans like assholes" sorts of problems some promotions have with online interactions but then there's also this real desire to see promotions do better. The more great wrestling we get through organizations that act professionally and present themselves in a way that doesn't look/feel low class or low value, the greater the potential to make hardcore fans out of more casual viewers who aren't digging what the big promotion is putting out there. And the fan that cares about professional wrestling as a whole is also the fan who is going to be very critical of it at all levels (and this criticism seems to upset some promoters, as we've seen in various Twitter beefs).

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by Leo C » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:25 am

Although I'm mostly on the same camp as you guys on the TV-14 issue (people grossly overrate the effect that would have in product quality), I do think it would help. It would definitely improve talking segments if the guys were allowed to swear a bit more, it just makes it a lot more realistic. Now, granted, that is NOT the biggest problem with WWE promos but it would help a little.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by stienerontheforklift » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:42 pm

suplexberry wrote:Ryan & Kelly as Tom & Alicia Fox makes me feel nostalgic ..for something that happened on the App like 3 years ago. I support it.

I'm gonna listen to the DG portion of the show after I finish my rewatch this weekend.

Not a lot to add to the Heenan discussion. As a fan who had to study up on older stuff as I was never exposed to it as a kid, his commentary on some old Bret Hart matches I watched was very influential to me in how commentary can/should work. A lot of commentary today just doesn't do anything for anybody.

I took the survey despite the fact I'm not gonna subscribe again. I think the scripted drama/comedy bit may have also been influenced by Netflix's GLOW. Though we don't know Netflix's figures on it, it at least got that usual Netflix original buzz for a week or two and tons of wrestling fans liked it, and plenty of those who aren't fans got into it, too. I don't know how WWE thinks they will finance such projects if a studio show like the Edge & Christian show got cut because it's too expensive, I guess that premium tier is gonna solve all problems.

I think there's an article to be written about the consumerism of the hardcore wrestling fan. Maybe it's that I'm in the bubble as deep as you can get but it seems like a very relevant topic - with WWE talking of "superserving" fans and Flo trying (and failing) to get that fan segment on board as well, and the overall media consumer trends showing that people want niche but they also want ease. The people who care enough to spend money on more than one pro wrestling streaming service, or actually buy individual events or buy every Young Bucks shirt - there's the consumer who spends a lot of money on this thing, but they're not the easiest segment to appease. Like the reason Flo looks like a failure is that the fans they want are also going to be discerning fans, who are gonna look at the production value critically or things like promotions flirting with Flo but then not going with them.

This segment of fans is gonna get into Twitter tiffs about stuff like social media presentation, marketing and branding with the promotions they give money to. There's a base level "maybe don't treat your fans/potential fans like assholes" sorts of problems some promotions have with online interactions but then there's also this real desire to see promotions do better. The more great wrestling we get through organizations that act professionally and present themselves in a way that doesn't look/feel low class or low value, the greater the potential to make hardcore fans out of more casual viewers who aren't digging what the big promotion is putting out there. And the fan that cares about professional wrestling as a whole is also the fan who is going to be very critical of it at all levels (and this criticism seems to upset some promoters, as we've seen in various Twitter beefs).
I really like and agree with your last paragraph. I don't feel like any one promotion has brought all of these desired qualities together. Big time feel/look, professional presence and online presence, ease of access and affordability. PROGRESS certainly has the presentation side down, when I went down to Manchester for last year I was blown away by the level of organisation and polish to their product. Although their online presentation leaves something to be desired. Rev Pro seems to conduct themselves in a professional manner, but every time I go to York Hall I get annoyed by the notorious excessive security and event organisation is usually pretty poor, I always leave a Rev Pro show thinking I should have enjoyed that more. I would watch more FCP if their shows weren't ten quid a pop on vimeo, which is a shame because I generally enjoy their product.

I have a real soft spot for PWG, but their ease of access problems are well documented, and they are never changing. I love the WWN roster and cards but their second-rate look is so off-putting. Wrestling fans can be difficult to be please, but I feel like a lot of the problems these top promotions have can be solved by either a little money and care put into their product, or an attitude change regarding a certain aspect of their business. Would it be so fucking hard for PROGRESS to not be snippy regarding any form of criticism? Would it be so difficult for Rev Pro to not give me a strip search every time anyone goes into York Hall? Could FCP and PWG set up a on-demand subscription service that everyone and their fucking mother already has done? These problems seem more to do with the overall philosophy of said promotion rather than simple oversights. Since these problems are inherent with these promotions, it honestly feels like they will never change. That is the way things are.

This is purely on me, but I've been spending what little money I have on concerts rather than wrestling events recently. It's not because I'm done with wrestling. I just end up having more fun and feel more welcome at concerts than wrestling events.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by Bloodbuzz Bunk » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:10 am

I love the discussion in this thread because it gets at the heart of a question I always find myself asking "Are we, the passionate vocal hardcore minority, worth catering to?". I would like to think yes. I would like to think,contrary to Joe's opinion in the podcast, that if Gabe was still booking ROH and developing talent than ROH would have still been this successful( if not more) with this TV deal. But in end I doubt we are enough to be target audience for a promotion( Evolve somewhat proves this point)because even Evolve had better production values and presentation I doubt it would produce the numbers or buzz needed to justify even half of the investment Flo provided. I think we all just may be to picky for our own good.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by suplexberry » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:59 am

I want to think we are, because passion means more dollars spent. Like I've talked to some of my friends who aren't into wrestling and they find it kinda crazy on any given month I could be subscribed to two streaming services for wrestling, neither of which have the amount of stuff Netflix or HBO Nordic have, but they have stuff I am really passionate about following and keeping up with. But then I also have friends who may have a Netflix subscription but also spend ludicrous amounts of money to go to film festivals and regular screenings to keep up with cinema, so there's that comparable passion level.

BritWres Roundtable had a discussion about the "casual hardcore" fan market of today who may watch ROH or big NJPW shows or LU and nowadays they might also be into PROGRESS in a big way, but they're not deep-diving into everything or trying to find the best/their favorite wrestling from all over, regardless of whether it's a Euro graps or britwres or an American indy or whatever, like stieneronaforklift talked about upthread. To be honest that's probably the market with most growth potential - disillusioned enough with WWE to branch out but not full-on nutty for niche. But they're also the fan to demand better quality in presentation and branding, because shoddy anything turns them off.

I'm a new fan of them but honestly wXw in Germany does such a good job on all fronts. Their shows look good, they act professional online and promote efficiently, they put effort into accessibility and the product itself can be great as well, lots of promising talent and they tour so much you know the next generation of guys is constantly getting more experienced.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:14 am

Let the Sonya vs Shayna debate rage on! I like both, but neither have the upside of Rhea Ripley. All aboard!

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by BlizzardAcolyte » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:44 pm

I can help expedite the "bring back match reviews" shtick. If you guys agree to do the Starrcade '91 live watch sometime in the next month, I will PayPal you each $15 (even if you hand off the actual live watch to two other Voices).

I'm being quite serious about this, BTW.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by stienerontheforklift » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:02 pm

I agree about WXW, they do a great job making their product accessible to non-German speaking fans and their shows always have a great vibe. Would love to go to a 16 Carat one day. I think about what hasn't been talked about in regards to the growth of the British scene is WWE's completely neglect of it. There hasn't been a British PPV in nearly 15 years, which is a historically strong market. The idea of WWE coming to town for shows, that to be honest don't really matter, isn't novel anymore. I could spend three figures on a WWE house show in Glasgow, or I could spend the fraction of the cost on a PROGRESS show, a company that does a great job making all their shows matter. My local indie Discovery Wrestling got Kenny Omega to come to Edinburgh, or I could spend quadruple that on seeing the living entrance Bray Wyatt. WWE need to adapt their pricing structure for shows, because right now in Britain at least, they are bad value for money.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by Lawsoncomedy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:19 pm

Tanahashi vs Sabre was excellent, how dare you guys. I watched that twice and I never do that.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by BoxingRobes » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Can not get the image of Joe M Lanza putting his fists up and bouncing around like Brock Lesnar every time Sonya Deville comes on for a promo...goes full on mark with her catch phrase and says PUT YER HAIR UP...N SQUARE UP like he's Sonya Deville's IZZY.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Bobby Heenan, FloSlam Lawsuit, WWE No Mercy & more!

Post by Danwaka » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:50 am

Lanza = Izzy. Well that's an image that'll haunt a person.

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