VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

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DXvsNWO
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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by DXvsNWO » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:32 am

I'm jumping around a few things in this post, so bear with me (apologies in advance)....

This is just stating the obvious, but another great show this week! Really enjoyed the discussions about Kenny Omega and the upcoming New Japan cards. Also, thanks for shouting out my FIP review! What sucks is that the main reason I wanted to watch that FIP show (beside the intrigue of the "new" FIP) was that the talent roster actually looked very solid, but after that showing, I just can't watch them again (unless they put together a really good card). What's even worse is that it's not even a fault of the talent (who I feel bad for), but the horrible booking.

Something I noticed with iTunes is that while new podcasts episodes no longer show up on the Apple Podcast App on my iPhone, they do show up on iTunes on my MacBook Pro. All I have to do is plug in my iPhone and add the podcasts manually. That could be a solution, for those still having issues.

The whole FloSlam thing is really fascinating. I said this when I first heard that WWNLive was joining up with them, but if you're someone (like me) who is a regular Evolve viewer, then it was a pretty easy decision to subscribe to FloSlam, simply from a cost perspective ($20 for two Evolve shows a month is better than paying $30 on WWNLive). What also helps is that Evolve is running at least two shows a month now. If FloSlam came along two years ago, when Evolve wasn't running very frequently, then I think it would be a lot tougher to convince someone to buy a subscription. Plus, Evolve has easily been the most consistent wrestling promotion in the U.S. over the last two years, from a match quality perspective (bad....even average....Evolve shows are few & far between), so for my money, as long as Evolve continues to produce really good to great shows, then I'm keeping my subscription. Might that change in 2017? Possibly (especially with the talent exodus this year), but until then, I'm keeping my FloSlam subscription.

As far as FloSlam adding more promotions is concerned, didn't wXw announce a deal with them not that long ago? I think it was announced on a Wrestling Observer Live and was brought up in the "WWE Network Changes/FloSports Speculation" Thread. I'm not sure what the extent of that deal is, because wXw has their own streaming service (plus they run a ton of shows), but if they put up all of their major shows, like 16 Carat Gold, the World Tag Team League, and so on, I think that adds a little to FloSlam. However, even with that, I still think they're lacking in content.

I'm curious to see where the whole streaming service market goes in 2017, with FloSlam coming about, and Powerbomb.TV recently launching. I think it's awesome that all of these promotions have streaming services, but the thing is, I think the market is starting to get really saturated. Sure, they work if you're someone who's only into specific promotions, but if you're someone like me who tries to watch all of these promotions, I can't afford to pay for all of these subscription services because there are so many, and that really sucks because there are promotions I really want to watch. I would love to have a service that includes places like PROGRESS, wXw, RevPro, SMASH, AAW, AIW, and so on, under one umbrella, but FloSlam hasn't been able to grab a lot of promotions, and Powerbomb.TV seems to mainly focusing on much smaller independents. I guess my question is, what is the future of these promotion-specific streaming services, because again, if you're someone who wants to watch all of those promotions (plus WWE and New Japan, who have their own services), the cost starts to add up.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed how much talent Evolve lost in 2016. They really had a talent exodus of their own, but I think it's been hidden by the fact that they've still been having great shows for most of the year (plus ROH's talent issues have overshadowed Evolve's IMO). It'll be interesting to see how Evolve is able to rebuild their talent roster in 2017, and how the show quality is affected.
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Garuda
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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by Garuda » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:33 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
Goat wrote:Since they like doing the spooky time gimmicks with Taker what's the shot they do him against Devitt's demon thing at Mania?
I think it has to be Roman or Balor, because who else is there? We just wrote off Balor assuming he won't be ready. If they feel he will be, that changes everything.
Balor was my first thought, if they still think he's a mover.

Other then that the only other thing would be to call someone up, but doing Nak or Joe... smells like fantasy booking. Zayn or Owens both feels like fantasy.

Thanks for the show, btw. That FloSlam bit was eye-opening.

Finally, the Rumble has me stumped just with regards to who will be in the Rumble. All those title matches, any of them could stagger out like Owens and Ambrose did after their match last year. Or none will make it to the Rumble. Unsure.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by Empiresk » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:59 pm

The WWN burial was well deserved. That venue was embarrassing but it some people have come to accept that this comes with WWN. As Joe has regularly stated, if this was a European promotion that is arguably on par with WWN in terms of reach and fanbase like PROGRESS or wXw they would have been buried ten times over for this venue.

PROGRESS, as I type, are debuting in Birmingham and I can bet that they will blow WWN out of the water in terms of venue and production and they are run by three people who do it part time. WWN has multi-million dollar backing and I can bet that their Mania-Weekend venue will also look like shit without even researching it.

It is very frustrating as it seems they never learn and everyone can see their potential with Evolve.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by Rainmaker_F7 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:27 pm

Completely agree about WWN and Floslam. I am never paying 20 dollars for this, especially when I can get BOTH WWE Network and NJPW World for this price, and Progress on demand for like 1/4 of that price. That venue everyone is talking about? An embarassment. This is also one reason I could never get into EVOLVE, it just smells minor league, the venue looks like shit, 3/4 of the wrestlers - even though are very good in the ring don't exactly stand out, and when top guys like Gulak or Thatcher are charisma vacuums then sorry, I am not following this at all, unless I hear that this or that match is a top tier MOTYC like it was with Sabre/Ospreay for example.

Haven't gotten to the WWE stuff yet, but really enjoyed the Omega/NJPW discussion. Like you both said, Kenny is a very, very smart guy. I knew what to expect after that tweet, but I was still very surprised with how people, especially Meltzer reacted after that tweet (I have so much respect to Dave, but his Japanese SCOOPZ are really miss most of the times nowadays). I'd never think about this if I was running NJPW, but doing what they are doing now with the Bullet Club is very, very smart and may actually make them mean something again (they aren't really relevant aside of Omega and maybe the Bucks anymore).

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by thecubsfan » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:37 pm

Lawsoncomedy wrote:Also I love that you guys put over Matt Striker on commentary. Everyone craps on him but the dude at least knows stuff. Idk why Meltzer and Alvarez are so hard on him. He usually only does a couple annoying things per hour, but he supplies a lot of information.
Striker has been horrible at best in his AAA spots, offensively bad at times. He's at best below average in Lucha Underground, where he tends to use his information to get himself over for a 'clever' reference than to get the match or the wrestlers over. (In his defense, some of his dumber lines have been fed to him by the writers in his headset, and they're clearly content with his work.) Post WWE, Striker is better when there's someone in his ear or someone next to him to reign him in, and maybe Kelly could be that. I'd bet on finding someone new who has the knowledge if not the name, and hope he (or she) can grow into the role of the English language voice of NJPW. These things usually go the other way, and they (Kelly?) pick a familiar name to make the viewer (and owner) more comfortable.

FloSlam thinking they ever had more than a small chance of getting CMLL feels like a total misunderstanding of the Mexican market on a few different levels. If they were actually telling people they could get CMLL, that is amazing.

Maybe overthinking it, but Reigns winning a match with against Undertaker at WM doesn't seem a certainty. WWE biz mythos is the Rock/Cena two year program was the best thing ever, and it'd be easy to plug Undertaker & Reigns to do it again.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by Speedy Bellerin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:02 pm

People don't like Mauro Ranallo? I suppose there is no accounting for taste. I love the guy.

I just can't see Reigns vs Undertaker no matter how hard I try it's just too traumatising. Would Roman be the champ and successfully defend? Would Vince have Taker go over to make Reigns seem at least vaguely human?

I think Wrestlemania has been pretty terrible for years and WWE are very lucky that fans enjoy themselves despite this.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by DXvsNWO » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:29 pm

Speedy Bellerin wrote:People don't like Mauro Ranallo? I suppose there is no accounting for taste. I love the guy.
I get why some people are turned off by him, but I'm with Joe Lanza on this one. I really enjoy Mauro Ranallo.
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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by noggy » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:03 pm

wac wrote:I don't think Okada not kicking out of the One Winged Angel is necessarily proof of anything either way. Nakamura didn't kick out of the Styles Clash at last year's Wrestle Kingdom.

Didn't he? IIRC, Styles hit the move fighting out of an armbar or triangle choke and Nakamura kicked out.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by mlev76 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:01 pm

You guys hit the nail on its head on the WWE's plans with regard to making the Network a one stop shop for all wrestling fans. So, I'm still perplexed by people whining about Raw. We're already at the point where you really don't need to watch the whole show (or any of it if you so choose) to remain an active and engaged fan. It's still the most popular show, but Smackdown is not too far off and for many in the more diehard community, it's already the top show.

Obviously, you guys made a mistake in forgetting Cena was in the title match and not in the Rumble. And that makes me think that 1) the WWE title match will be a much bigger deal than you are assuming because either he wins at the Rumble and defends at Mania or they keep the belt on AJ and do some stipulation between them at Mania.

I also think your assumption on Reigns/Taker is wrong though I don't know who else could face him. It seems like the natural call would be Reigns wins the match at the Rumble, Reigns vs. Braun and Owens vs. Jericho at Mania. So, then what for Taker? Would they dare do Joe or Nakamura? Joe seems all but done with NXT and Nakamura could lose the title at Takeover.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by kcstlchi » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:44 pm

I spent like an hour of my drive trying to think who in the hell Styles was facing at the rumble if it wasn't Cena. Rollins and Reigns are pretty interchangeable so I just figured that match was Owens vs Rollins.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by throwstuff165 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:31 am

The WWN burial was pretty spot-on. I as a fan don't really care anything for aesthetics 99% of the time. Even that one EVOLVE show they ran in that back alley or wherever it was that everyone makes fun of all the time didn't bother me much; I remember quite enjoying that show. And yet, when I saw all those pictures floating around of the Style Battle, even I was thinking "bush league"... no pun intended. So when someone like me, who would generally rank overall presentation as a distant last in terms of what I think is important when watching a pro wrestling show, is turned off of watching a show simply because of aesthetics, you've got a problem.

I think it's because, as Joe said, the times have just changed and you can't get away with that kind of thing at all anymore. PROGRESS is a good contrasting example because from day 1 they've been committed to giving the promotion a very underground, grungy, punk-rock atmosphere, but they don't do it at the cost of looking professional.

When FloSlam first got announced, I really thought it'd do better than it has. And it's probably too early to call it completely dead yet, but they sure haven't impressed so far.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by BradPTBN » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:34 pm

The WWN/FloSlam segment was on point for sure and it was refreshing to hear. I wanted to offer a quick counter to Joe's point about Gabe not being motivated to make changes unless FloSlam directs him. I have to think some part of their agreement is an escalating payout based on subscribers, right? It certainly has to be more than a guaranteed 3.5 million for five years and 60 shows a year, with no other contingencies on how those shows look or are produced. Unless FloSports are completely out of their league and have no clue. Can FloSlam opt out of this at any time? This can't be a WCW-like deal where they get paid regardless.

So Gabe IS (or should be, obviously) motivated to improve his product and attract more viewers. It raises his stock and the company he's partnering with. If FloSlam makes more money, they can spend more on contracts, locking guys up. Both sides should be invested here, which is why it is so bewildering that months after the deal, THAT is what was produced.

I agree with Sean's point on if you're a diehard Evolve fan, the $20 a month is a savings. But that leads back to the conversation on how many subscribers they need to break even - because the Evolve diehards have already all signed up. And those diehards probably signed up for the $12.50 a month up-front yearly subscription - so FloSlam isn't even getting $240 a year from the those people. No idea how these ancillary WWN shows, or these other one-off promotions who get a couple shows, drive subscribers to come close to meeting their costs.

And I think those yearly subscribers that they roped early have a legit complaint that FloSlam has dropped the ball on the promised WWN archive. They should honestly be asking for refunds, FloSlam has not delivered there - and I'm sure their response would be that you get access to ALL of the Flo networks for that yearly sub, but no one signing up for FloSlam gives a fuck about small-time college track & field.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:14 pm

BradPTBN wrote:The WWN/FloSlam segment was on point for sure and it was refreshing to hear. I wanted to offer a quick counter to Joe's point about Gabe not being motivated to make changes unless FloSlam directs him. I have to think some part of their agreement is an escalating payout based on subscribers, right? It certainly has to be more than a guaranteed 3.5 million for five years and 60 shows a year, with no other contingencies on how those shows look or are produced. Unless FloSports are completely out of their league and have no clue. Can FloSlam opt out of this at any time? This can't be a WCW-like deal where they get paid regardless.

So Gabe IS (or should be, obviously) motivated to improve his product and attract more viewers. It raises his stock and the company he's partnering with. If FloSlam makes more money, they can spend more on contracts, locking guys up. Both sides should be invested here, which is why it is so bewildering that months after the deal, THAT is what was produced.

I agree with Sean's point on if you're a diehard Evolve fan, the $20 a month is a savings. But that leads back to the conversation on how many subscribers they need to break even - because the Evolve diehards have already all signed up. And those diehards probably signed up for the $12.50 a month up-front yearly subscription - so FloSlam isn't even getting $240 a year from the those people. No idea how these ancillary WWN shows, or these other one-off promotions who get a couple shows, drive subscribers to come close to meeting their costs.

And I think those yearly subscribers that they roped early have a legit complaint that FloSlam has dropped the ball on the promised WWN archive. They should honestly be asking for refunds, FloSlam has not delivered there - and I'm sure their response would be that you get access to ALL of the Flo networks for that yearly sub, but no one signing up for FloSlam gives a fuck about small-time college track & field.
Completely forgot about the yearly subs that work out to $12.50 p/m when we did the math. So you are absolutely right. The EVOLVE die hards surely chose that option, which means the total number of subscribers needed to break even on the WWN contract alone is probably ~20% higher (conservatively) than we figured.

And yeah, I agree that in theory the WWN side should be motivated to produce a better overall product if they are playing the long game. Gabe has the eye for talent and always has. No issue there. But better production, better presentation, as we discussed all of those things matter. The competition for streaming dollars is major league. You can't be the most expensive and the least professional looking. If i'm WWN, the current contract is the past, we already earned that one. I'd be working my ass off to secure the next contract, and the only way to do that is to produce subscriptions. As the flagship entity, all success of failure will fall on WWN, and it's baffling to me how badly they appear to be mailing it in. These "new" promotions feel like they were only created to meet a quota.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by Ferrante207 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:00 pm

The goth just lol'd when she walked in the room and I had style battle on. It feels shameful watching this stuff.

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Re: VOW Flagship: Kenny Omega, WrestleMania Changes & more!

Post by BoxingRobes » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:24 pm

Future Robes...WWE Territory and FLOSLAM takes post...

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