205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

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suplexberry
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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by suplexberry » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:11 pm

Empiresk wrote: He seemed to peak as a prodigy in 2014 due to his age but has stood still since. I barely remember any matches from ICW or PCW that people were raving about in the build up to CWC. He would have been a guy to send to developmental rather than showcasing him straight away.
This really nails it. It's sometimes kind of dangerous to be seen as an up-and-coming superstar because you never know how guys will progress .. or fail to progress. Some guys lose motivation, some guys aren't given shit to do, some guys just don't have it, who knows. But I agree Noam Dar hasn't really developed as maybe one might've hoped when he first broke out on the hot hot British scene.

His Twitter banter is on-point, which seems to be a separate brand of workrate for UK wrestlers these days but that doesn't get you over in Corpus Christi.

Anyway, I gotta put the flagship over once more because I made the mistake of listening to one of these dime-a-dozen wrestle pods where three guys whinge about WWE booking and can never mention a female wrestler without also talking about how their dick feels about her. Never heard this kind of shit on the flagship, and it's not like you guys are radical feminists, it's just simply focusing on the graps. As it should be.

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Joe Lanza
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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:39 pm

Appreciate that. We've had our fair share of pissing people off/offending people over the years, but if nothing else we just try to be real and let the chips fall.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by Frank Olson » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:58 pm

Not sure that I fully agree that reDRagon have done everything there is to do in ROH and New Japan. One match that I personally really want to see (and that wouldn't mean anything to most viewers outside of the context of ROH) is a big title match between O'Reilly and Fish, which they seem to have simmering on the backburner with Kyle recently winning the title and Bobby having the title shot from winning Survival of the Fittest. Also they just got bumped up to heavyweight status in NJPW, and I'd love to see them have a dominant run with the IWGP Tag belts. They'd also both be really interesting guys to watch in the G1, given that practically everybody would be a fresh matchup for them. I can't argue with the point that it's probably now or never for Fish if he ever wants to have a WWE run, but I feel like their ceiling there would be “hot NXT tag team who never do anything of note on the main roster.”

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by RobViper13 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:48 am

I agree with the point fans who grew up with WWE over the last few years don't know any better. That's why it's so hard to even attempt to argue with some of them. They only know one form of wrestling, one way of doing things. It's annoying as fuck.

Speaking of annoying WWE fans... the 205 Live show can still be redeemed quite easily. The trick is just to make it "cool", like NXT in your example. On the next Takeover, preferably Royal Rumble weekend?, or even better - on the RAW after Mania - they need to send the guys out to do a blowaway 6 man tag but most importantly they need to get some weird chant associated with the division. Your typical WWE fan is barely above the intelligence level of a parrot. They just want to chant something. Like that TEN nonsense for a wrestler most of them can't even name. So you attach a chant to the 205 Live guys and suddenly their matches will get a reaction no matter who is involved.

The inevitable follow-up to this 205 Live deal is WWE will randomly send out Dorada/Tozawa to tear it up one of these weeks & all the usual WWE superfans will proclaim EVERYTHING IS FIXED, THIS SHOW IS GREAT. But it'll be back to the normal the following week & the one standout match will forever be the counter argument to whenever anyone says the show sucks.
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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:03 pm

RobViper13 wrote:The inevitable follow-up to this 205 Live deal is WWE will randomly send out Dorada/Tozawa to tear it up one of these weeks & all the usual WWE superfans will proclaim EVERYTHING IS FIXED, THIS SHOW IS GREAT. But it'll be back to the normal the following week & the one standout match will forever be the counter argument to whenever anyone says the show sucks.
I have no doubt at some point in the live of 205 Live they'll have good matches, hell, they may even have a few good weeks in a row. The idea that this show will ever be "fixed" is crazy though. I just don't see it. We've got an example already, we see the template, we see how they want the show to be constructed.

Maybe it turns into a sleeper like Superstars from a few years ago, but even then, do we want that? Do we want a show that is simply Guy vs. Guy with no context, no personality profiles, no energy? What made the CWC so stand out was the blend of simple storytelling where you become emotionally invested in the person and the wrestler along with great, bullshit-free matches. If it becomes what many expect, a taped show that Vince & co. doesn't give a shit about then it becomes just that, something that nobody gives a shit about. There won't be highlight packages, or personality profiles, it'll simply be a random collection of smaller dudes working in front of 1/4 full arenas before SmackDown.

They had a chance to do something with 205 Live but that's already passed IMO. You aren't bottling that up again. They could have hit it out of the park from jump but they those to WWE-ify it at a record pace.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by mlev76 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:45 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
RobViper13 wrote:The inevitable follow-up to this 205 Live deal is WWE will randomly send out Dorada/Tozawa to tear it up one of these weeks & all the usual WWE superfans will proclaim EVERYTHING IS FIXED, THIS SHOW IS GREAT. But it'll be back to the normal the following week & the one standout match will forever be the counter argument to whenever anyone says the show sucks.
I have no doubt at some point in the live of 205 Live they'll have good matches, hell, they may even have a few good weeks in a row. The idea that this show will ever be "fixed" is crazy though. I just don't see it. We've got an example already, we see the template, we see how they want the show to be constructed.

Maybe it turns into a sleeper like Superstars from a few years ago, but even then, do we want that? Do we want a show that is simply Guy vs. Guy with no context, no personality profiles, no energy? What made the CWC so stand out was the blend of simple storytelling where you become emotionally invested in the person and the wrestler along with great, bullshit-free matches. If it becomes what many expect, a taped show that Vince & co. doesn't give a shit about then it becomes just that, something that nobody gives a shit about. There won't be highlight packages, or personality profiles, it'll simply be a random collection of smaller dudes working in front of 1/4 full arenas before SmackDown.

They had a chance to do something with 205 Live but that's already passed IMO. You aren't bottling that up again. They could have hit it out of the park from jump but they those to WWE-ify it at a record pace.
You may be right, but to think a show is irredeemable after two weeks is pretty odd in my opinion. Given that they have no tie to ratings or profit, it's actually a good example of show that CAN be redeemed once it's tinkered with enough to get the right people and right setting involved. Whether they do or not is debatable, but the idea that a show that is 1) ratings-proof; 2) involves people they are paying and probably should do something with; and 3) proven popular in other circumstances is a bit much.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:49 pm

mlev76 wrote:
Rich Kraetsch wrote:
RobViper13 wrote:The inevitable follow-up to this 205 Live deal is WWE will randomly send out Dorada/Tozawa to tear it up one of these weeks & all the usual WWE superfans will proclaim EVERYTHING IS FIXED, THIS SHOW IS GREAT. But it'll be back to the normal the following week & the one standout match will forever be the counter argument to whenever anyone says the show sucks.
I have no doubt at some point in the live of 205 Live they'll have good matches, hell, they may even have a few good weeks in a row. The idea that this show will ever be "fixed" is crazy though. I just don't see it. We've got an example already, we see the template, we see how they want the show to be constructed.

Maybe it turns into a sleeper like Superstars from a few years ago, but even then, do we want that? Do we want a show that is simply Guy vs. Guy with no context, no personality profiles, no energy? What made the CWC so stand out was the blend of simple storytelling where you become emotionally invested in the person and the wrestler along with great, bullshit-free matches. If it becomes what many expect, a taped show that Vince & co. doesn't give a shit about then it becomes just that, something that nobody gives a shit about. There won't be highlight packages, or personality profiles, it'll simply be a random collection of smaller dudes working in front of 1/4 full arenas before SmackDown.

They had a chance to do something with 205 Live but that's already passed IMO. You aren't bottling that up again. They could have hit it out of the park from jump but they those to WWE-ify it at a record pace.
You may be right, but to think a show is irredeemable after two weeks is pretty odd in my opinion. Given that they have no tie to ratings or profit, it's actually a good example of show that CAN be redeemed once it's tinkered with enough to get the right people and right setting involved. Whether they do or not is debatable, but the idea that a show that is 1) ratings-proof; 2) involves people they are paying and probably should do something with; and 3) proven popular in other circumstances is a bit much.
We need to stop saying this. Sure, 205 Live is only a few weeks ago but the RAW Cruiserweight Division is months old. There's also numerous years of examples of WWE (more specifically main roster WWE/Vince) booking cruiserweights to know where this was going and where it will go.

I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt. They'll have to prove me wrong on this.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by mlev76 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:13 pm

Rich Kraetsch wrote:
mlev76 wrote:
Rich Kraetsch wrote:
I have no doubt at some point in the live of 205 Live they'll have good matches, hell, they may even have a few good weeks in a row. The idea that this show will ever be "fixed" is crazy though. I just don't see it. We've got an example already, we see the template, we see how they want the show to be constructed.

Maybe it turns into a sleeper like Superstars from a few years ago, but even then, do we want that? Do we want a show that is simply Guy vs. Guy with no context, no personality profiles, no energy? What made the CWC so stand out was the blend of simple storytelling where you become emotionally invested in the person and the wrestler along with great, bullshit-free matches. If it becomes what many expect, a taped show that Vince & co. doesn't give a shit about then it becomes just that, something that nobody gives a shit about. There won't be highlight packages, or personality profiles, it'll simply be a random collection of smaller dudes working in front of 1/4 full arenas before SmackDown.

They had a chance to do something with 205 Live but that's already passed IMO. You aren't bottling that up again. They could have hit it out of the park from jump but they those to WWE-ify it at a record pace.
You may be right, but to think a show is irredeemable after two weeks is pretty odd in my opinion. Given that they have no tie to ratings or profit, it's actually a good example of show that CAN be redeemed once it's tinkered with enough to get the right people and right setting involved. Whether they do or not is debatable, but the idea that a show that is 1) ratings-proof; 2) involves people they are paying and probably should do something with; and 3) proven popular in other circumstances is a bit much.
We need to stop saying this. Sure, 205 Live is only a few weeks ago but the RAW Cruiserweight Division is months old. There's also numerous years of examples of WWE (more specifically main roster WWE/Vince) booking cruiserweights to know where this was going and where it will go.

I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt. They'll have to prove me wrong on this.
You can do whatever you so choose, but I'd say an indeterminate segment of a show versus an hour long dedicated show are not the same thing. Your critiques of the show thus far and how the cruiserweights have been handled are 100% valid, but I'm not going to credit your fatalistic view on the show itself just yet.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by suplexberry » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:46 pm

I think Rich's point speaks to this game that WWE booking often draws you in (other promotions do this too, nobody is exempt, but admittedly WWE is the most frequent culprit) of wait and see. You wait and see and try to be fair to WWE's floundering booking, which we know is spearheaded by a man who likes to make sudden changes for no apparent reason, keep his writers on their toes, and burn people out in key positions so they leave after six months on the job, and some unprepared junior writer gets shoved in their place. CWC seemed to have a singular, big picture vision of what it wanted to be, which worked out well for it, which lead to the type of no nonsense storytelling that people really enjoyed. Cruiserweight Division never had Vince's interest or care, and because of how WWE books, there was no singular big picture, or a driving force, which is what lead to this uninteresting mess among the other RAW chaos.

I think there's a shot that 205 Live recovers and gets this big picture vision and gets on the right track in terms of characters, stories, matches, but it's a hell of a mountain to climb, in all honesty. I feel so bad for the talent.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by Rich Kraetsch » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:20 pm

Don't get it twisted, I WANT 205 Live to be awesome. I said on the show we did immediately following the CWC that my ideal plan for cruisers would be put them on their own show, on WWE Network. I think that's the ideal way to get them over and make it a worthwhile venture for WWE.

That's not even including the wealth of talent they have, among them some of my favorite wrestlers in the world today.

I want it to be great. I really do.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by Danwaka » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:24 pm

Random thought to Joe and Rich, but has there been any talk about doing a state of the union on British wrestling? You've often talked about how now is the time to get into DG and you give reasons why, but there could be some more done by the Brit-Wres guys in articles to give drop-in points for stuff like ICW, Progress, etc... and explain the regulars to people not too up on the sector.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by Garuda » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:38 pm

There's a very brief list of things in recent years that WWE has fucked up from jump and then "figured out" over time.

Plus they also don't really seems to show interest in "figuring things out." They're all hubris - they get it right or wrong, and if they get it wrong they blame the project and give up on it.

It could absolutely turn around but it's foolish to harbor any true optimism that they will. That's where optimism steers all the way into fool-heartiness. At a certain point you're not not learning your lesson.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by Joe Lanza » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:15 am

Danwaka wrote:Random thought to Joe and Rich, but has there been any talk about doing a state of the union on British wrestling? You've often talked about how now is the time to get into DG and you give reasons why, but there could be some more done by the Brit-Wres guys in articles to give drop-in points for stuff like ICW, Progress, etc... and explain the regulars to people not too up on the sector.
In terms of our show, I have just gotten into a groove with watching every PROGRESS show, and select shows from RevPro and a couple of others. Previously I was cherry picking matches. I have a stay in your lane philosophy, and I don't feel I'm the right person right now to do a "state of the union" type breakdown of Brit graps. Based on his tweets and from talking to him, I think Rich keeps up even less than me, but I could be wrong.

I'd be comfortable breaking down shows and such like we do for other promotions, but this all comes down to time, both in terms of time to watch for both myself & Rich, and also squeezing it into our 3-hour window. I'd love to talk Brit graps on the show, but like a lot of things, we simply can't find a way to work it in right now unfortunately.

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by Danwaka » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:57 am

Joe Lanza wrote:
Danwaka wrote:Random thought to Joe and Rich, but has there been any talk about doing a state of the union on British wrestling? You've often talked about how now is the time to get into DG and you give reasons why, but there could be some more done by the Brit-Wres guys in articles to give drop-in points for stuff like ICW, Progress, etc... and explain the regulars to people not too up on the sector.
In terms of our show, I have just gotten into a groove with watching every PROGRESS show, and select shows from RevPro and a couple of others. Previously I was cherry picking matches. I have a stay in your lane philosophy, and I don't feel I'm the right person right now to do a "state of the union" type breakdown of Brit graps. Based on his tweets and from talking to him, I think Rich keeps up even less than me, but I could be wrong.

I'd be comfortable breaking down shows and such like we do for other promotions, but this all comes down to time, both in terms of time to watch for both myself & Rich, and also squeezing it into our 3-hour window. I'd love to talk Brit graps on the show, but like a lot of things, we simply can't find a way to work it in right now unfortunately.
... I know, which is why I was asking about the Brit Wres round table guys and not you two. ;)

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Re: 205 Live, TLC, AJPW Sumo Hall, WON HOF & more!

Post by RobViper13 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:05 am

"It's only been two weeks."

This is like the kid who walks into class giving the teacher a million reasons why he couldn't finish his assignment because the night before a million things went wrong... even though the project was given to him a month ago.

WWE had a show like this in mind since the CWC began. This wasn't an idea someone came up with on November 28th.

This is the new Super Astros.
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